SPEAKER_03 0:01

Stay a while and listen. This is Break Yo Bales coming to you from my Sanctuary on the D2R Discord. On this episode, we sit down with a blizzard artist to talk about world building, atmosphere, and what it takes to bring fantasy worlds to life. Welcome back to Stay A While and Listen, where we explore the world of Diablo 2, Resurrected, and in this special episode, the broader Blizzard universe. Today, we are joined by Jordan Powers, lead prop artist on World of Warcraft. While Jordan doesn't work on Diablo directly, he helps shape the visual language of one of Blizzard's most iconic worlds. We'll be talking about art, atmosphere, and how great fantasy spaces are built. Jordan, thanks so much for joining us today. What's been keeping you busy lately?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

First of all, can I just say thank you so much for having me? It's so cool to be here and talk with you guys. I really enjoy the podcast and uh absolutely love D2R. Really one of my all-time favorites. As for uh what's been keeping me busy, we just launched uh a WoW expansion recently, Midnight. It has been soaking up uh, you know, most of my free time in the evenings. You know, with the launch of midnight, also came player housing, which has been very exciting for my team. Um, only gotten to play a bit of D2R lately, but um yeah, very excited to jump in now that Warlock is out.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

That that was the whole thing was just we we did an episode about it, but it's just like that that the whole way that it was shadow dropped, just straight up amazing. Let's rewind a bit and talk about how you got here, because nobody just starts out making worlds on this scale. So I guess my first question is uh how did you first get into digital art and what eventually led you to Blizzard?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

I I've always really been into art even as a kid. My parents uh literally have pictures of me like dual-wielding crayons when I was little, and I would just I would I would draw on everything that I could. Um, I used to go to my grandmother's house and we would watch Bob Ross paint. And uh, you know, my my grandma would let me use all of her expensive watercolors. Uh, we'd paint for hours. It was it was really great. And I so I knew from like a young age that art was something that I really wanted to do. I I just I love being creative. I also grew up on games too, you know, uh Nintendo, Super Nintendo era um Game Boy PC games too. I remember playing Doom 2 and you know Tides of Darkness, Land Parties, if you remember those, uh Warcraft 3, and I think Lord of Destruction came out within a year or so of each other. So, you know, games were games and art, I think, were always kind of part of my DNA. Uh, so I went to school, I got an illustration degree that led me to get a job at a technology camp where uh I got to teach kids digital arts courses and uh game design courses was pretty cool. Kind of like uh like a summer camp where you you learn how to make custom maps in a game engine, you know, like what I wish I had when I was a kid, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

That's really where I kind of married together my uh my love of art and my passion for games into something. So uh I went back to school, I got a 3D game art degree. That's where I met my mentor, Jeff Parrott. He was the one that really, you know, he pushed me and encouraged me to follow my dreams. And during a senior portfolio class, he had passed along my name and my portfolio to a blizzard recruiter without me knowing. So I got an email from a recruiter when I was still in class, and I was like, you know, I just I was in disbelief. I wrote back and I was like, yeah, sure, I'd love to do an interview. Are are you are you real? Is this real life?

SPEAKER_03 4:12

I mean, yeah, that I I can imagine, like out of the blue, to have that opportunity is pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah, I just I was I was not prepared for that. And yeah, they they flew me out for an interview. I started, you know, soon after graduating. That was in 2013. I was working um the end of Mysopendaria and the beginning of Warlords of Dranor expansion as an associate artist on uh on World of Warcraft. And now, you know, 13 years later, still here. It's been a wild journey, but I I wouldn't change it for anything. Absolutely love what I do and I love my team.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

And now you're here doing a podcast, yeah, with you guys. It's awesome. Yeah, all roads lead to podcasting, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 4:56

So, what drew you specifically to working on World of Warcraft?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

So I've been playing Warcraft uh gosh, since Warcraft 2, Tides of Darkness, like way back in the day. Um, I played Warcraft II, perhaps for an unhealthy amount of time with my friends. Uh and yeah, I've been, I mean, I've been playing WoW since 2004 when it launched. Um, it came out right when I was in college. Uh I just I remember getting lost in the world, I guess is the best way to put it. It just it felt so it felt big and dangerous, but exciting all at the same time. There was this huge like sense of adventure. And I I made friends for life, like all over the world from playing World of Warcraft, which is just is kind of crazy to say out loud, but you know, that that sense of wonder, you know, where you can kind of you think about all the stuff you can do with your friends, you can totally just get lost in this fantasy world. I um I loved it. I the amount of storytelling that they did with the environment, like and um the props, the characters, the music, it just it felt magical for me. I was hooked from the get-go. And I don't know, Warcraft has kind of just been for me, it's been that thing that's always been in my life, um, you know, from a very young age.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

When you got there, were you given the opportunity to kind of choose your own way? And you know, did did you were you like, absolutely, I want to go on World of Warcraft? Or was it more of a we see you as a World of Warcraft kind of guy? Like, was it is was it like a was it collaborative or targeted for you, you know, that you were gonna start, you know, doing the work there?

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah, I'd say there was some intention going into it, like what sub-team and discipline I would be working on, definitely on the art team, definitely World of Warcraft. Uh, the World of Warcraft team is pretty specialized as far as most game uh game teams are. Um, because we're we're building like an entire world. So there's you know, there's a team just for environment stuff, just for architecture, for characters, uh for props, which is what I do. So I I kind of knew going in what I what I loved, what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

So for listeners, and this does include me as well, who might not be familiar with the term, what is prop art and why is it so important to building a believable world?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

So prop art is it's a very niche part of game art. On some game projects, it's it's lumped into environment art, but because of the world that we build in World of Warcraft is so expansive and detailed, there's a separate team dedicated to making, you know, the small bits and bobs that you see in the game. What my team and I do, we we put ourselves kind of like in the shoes of a culture and we ask ourselves totally normal questions like, okay, if I were an orc or an elf, how would I go about building a table or a chair? You know, what tools would I use? What would I eat? Uh, how would I sleep? And, you know, we uh we design a series of props. We call them a uh a culture kit to help ultimately fulfill that fantasy. We we take a lot of pride in what we call ambient storytelling, which is basically telling a story without using words in all the little details, you know, that you see when you you enter a space in the game. So when you enter a room, you get a sense of, you know, how these beings live, what they do, what's important to them, that sort of thing. Props are kind of meant to sit back a little bit. They don't really take center stage, as it were. The joke is if if you don't really notice or zero in on a prop, it's probably doing its job well. It means it's making you feel grounded in the world, but also giving you some context clues at the same time, uh, which is, you know, obviously really important when you're doing world building in general.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Yeah. So something like, let's say, a tavern would the real feel empty if it didn't have cups and plates and such, and that'd be kind of like what you guys storytell. Okay. That's awesome. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Like, I guess as the whole team, you're creating a new space. You're essentially going in there and looking at it and going, trying to imagine what would be the detail that go in it, not not just a room, right? Like in a tavern, but you have to actually think about all the little details and and add everything down to the smallest detail.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Exactly. It's a term besides ambient storytelling. It's I think the the game term is like immersion, you know. Um you ultimately want people to feel like they are in the world, like it's a lived-in space, yeah, it's not this like sterile, lifeless uh space. You want it to feel lived in, you want to make it feel like there's there's history, there's lore, it's a it's a rich, vibrant world, and that's that's kind of where props come in. I've never I've never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_04 10:03

And and there's a thing here, you know, you know, when you go from city to city or from zone to zone and you see the the the changes, very few places that I can recall, and I've been trying to for the last couple minutes. I was trying to think of a place that I I can look back and go, was this room or this area, did it not match with what it was supposed to? And I can tell you I cannot think of one. You know, when when you go to a location and you go inside a building, you know where you are in that building, you know what zone you're in, you know the the culture that lives there based on what you're seeing. I find it interesting with housing because housing connects so many disparate elements of the game because we're drawing from all the different expansions and the different areas, and you know, you'll pick up a piece of decor from a troll area, and then you'll pick up one from an ethereal area, and then when you get them into your area in your space and you start building them together, you start being like, Well, what that doesn't match. I can't have an orc table with undead chairs. I'm I'm not a hobo. And and and let me tell you, my my house is just barren. It is like it looks like the kind of place that squatters have taken. I'm surprised that I'm surprised every time I go back in there that there's not graffiti on the walls. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

That's one of the cool things about housing is you you know, you're giving agency to the player to make those world-building decisions for their you know their own space. It's it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 11:35

Some of the some of the things I've seen are phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

So, do you remember an early moment in games or otherwise where you notice environmental details and thought, that's what I want to do?

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yes. Oh my gosh. Uh Warcraft 3's custom map editor, if you all remember that. I don't know if you played that, but the War 3 custom map community was amazing, y'all. I spent like so much time making and decorating my custom maps. There was there's actually a limit to how many props. They call them doodads, by the way. That's a technical term that they used back in the day. We still use that today on the WoW team. There was a limit to how many doodads you could place on a map. And I hit the limit every single time. I was like, these things are so cool. And then, you know, when World of Warcraft came out, I found myself obsessing over all the little details. There was, like we just mentioned, there's the food in taverns, there's books on shelves, alchemy tables. It just felt so incredible, incredible to me. I I uh I loved it. And um, but as far as like the moment that I knew, I was in a hand-painted op class uh in my 3D game art degree, and we were texturing, I think it was like a simple crate. And I remember looking at the clock and realizing that I had been painting tiny noodly details onto my crate for hours. I had completely, you know, lost track of time. And that kind of like world building that you can do visually, it was just it was so much fun to me. It was like this perfect blend of all the stuff that I loved, like art, storytelling. It felt very handcrafted, and that's that's when I knew that's what I wanted to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

You know, Blizzard games are so iconic visually. I I think that I could take any just about any piece of Diablo or WoW art out of context in a photo, and no matter what it is, immediately know that's from World of Warcraft, that's from Diablo. I'll I'll even fine-tune it because I'm a nerd that way. If it's wow stuff, I can almost guarantee you I can tell you which expansion it comes from. But from your perspective as an artist, what do you think helps define the quote-unquote blizzard look, whether it's wow or the games? Like, what do what do you think goes into making that a reality?

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Man, that's a that's a really great question. I I think all Blizzard games do a really great job at creating like compelling, iconic, and just memorable visuals. Each game, I would say, has its own unique visual identity and things that help make that game feel cohesive for sure. But I think there are some common denominators that that do bring them together, you know. Um, you look at blizzard characters, for example, they tend to have really bold and striking designs and and silhouettes and exaggerated proportions in a few areas. Like, what's a good example? Um, like Reinhardt from Overwatch. Yeah, Reinhardt, yeah. Reinhart, you see this massive arms, the huge shoulders, the huge hammer. Um, you look at someone like Ilidin from Warcraft. He has those tattered wings, those massive horns, those those glowing tattoos. That is distinctive shape language that defines that character. Even at a quick glance, you you immediately know who you're looking at. So they're all very recognizable. Um, they feel cohesive within their universe and have, you know, those bold elements and shapes in their designs. But I would say color palette is a big part of it too. If you look at a lot of the Warcraft characters, and heck, even some of the Diablo characters, they operate within a limited range of colors that each help give them kind of their own unique identity. It's pretty cool. And, you know, if looking beyond that, you know, I think a lot of that echoes in the environment art that you um that you see in our games as well. It feels uh illustrative, I guess is the right word. Like you you can really tell that an artist had a hand in crafting it. I think that really speaks to the people on all of our art teams and how they honor our craft. There's there's just a ton of talented folks on all the art teams across Blizzard, and they're they're all really passionate about what they do. I think uh I think that really comes across uh in the art that we create for all of our games.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

I do have to say I find it funny that you bring up Reinhardt. I remember shortly after Overwatch dropped, there was a bunch of illegal clones of Overwatch being made, and I swear every single one that popped up in a video had a Reinhardt clone in every single one of them. And he it's just such an iconic look.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

It is, yeah. It's once you have something striking and like iconic and recognizable like that, yeah, it's people latch onto it, you know?

SPEAKER_03 16:36

But now that we know how you found your way into Blizzard, let's talk about the work itself and what it takes to keep a world like Azeroth feeling alive year after year. So World of Warcraft has been around for 20 years. From an art standpoint, how do you keep a world feeling fresh while staying true to its identity?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Man, over 20 years, uh assigning a number to it just hits differently. It's it's it's always just man, it's just always been a part of my life. It's wild to think about. Uh one of the core kind of like philosophical pillars we have on the WoW art team is honor the past, forge the future. I think that speaks to the legacy that Warcraft holds in the gaming community. There's decades of established visual identity that we uh as artists need to keep in mind when we make things, uh, make them feel cohesive, but we also need to be forward thinking in how we're approaching making new things. I think that's that's vital for any established IP. Part of art is also about taking some sort of risk, you know, trying new things, seeing how we can evolve and and push and challenge ourselves. We owe it to ourselves to ask, you know, how can we improve on X or Y, but also keep true to our style? Um, because we we do take a very handcrafted approach to how we we build Warcraft and we want to keep doing that. So I think a big part of it is learning what's working well, understanding what players really resonate with visually, and kind of looking for ways that we can improve upon that with each new adventure, which um we had to do a lot of that with uh with Midnight recently.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

I just wanted to say, real quick, your answer, I guess my takeaway on that is like you want to make sure that you honor the past, right? But you also need to take risks on on new stuff, otherwise, everything kind of just stays the same. You try to maintain continuity across everything so so that there's always just kind of like a a line that connects everything together. I think that's really yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

You need some sort of like underlying visual connective tissue, I guess is the right term, to make it feel like it belongs in the world. But yeah, I mean, we have to constantly think of new ways that we can improve. We don't want to stagnate, you wanna you wanna keep growing, you wanna evolve as a team, as a game, and that's that's part of it too, you know.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Working off that response, I have a question. I'll go off the board for 200, Jim. When you have to take an area like Zulaman, which is you know, mighty troll empire, similar to Xandalar and Zulgub and the others, and it's steeped in its own tradition and rituals that have been there for centuries. The the Amani tribes have lived there for time immemorial, let's say. When we go to that zone, we're going there for the first time, so it's new to us, but it's not new to the Amani. So when you have a situation like that where you're not taking a zone fresh from scratch, uh, like say Harindar, where when you go to Zulaman, there's maybe, I don't want to use the word restriction, but there's a uh a framework there that says we need to be fresh, but at the same time, we need to remember that Zulaman has been around for a long time. So it might be jarring to a player if Zulaman's architecture, let's say, is different from what we've seen before in you know, uh other troll areas of the game that we've already experienced.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

This is such a great question. I honestly I I could probably fill an entire podcast talking about like the art and the philosophy behind this stuff. But um, I think when you're all the things you have to take into account artistically when you update or revisit things, I think it for me it's it's three main things. I think what is memorable and nostalgic for all of us, that's a big one. What's important about the fantasy experience from a player perspective, that's another one too. And I think the third one is looking for, you know, harking back to the last question, looking for ways that we can plus it uh using some modern design tools, right? So if you look at uh gosh, like Silver Moon uh City and Eversong Woods, both of those areas have a ton of nostalgia for like so many people. The original Silver Moon was mostly smoke and mirrors, you know, a lot of things were just 2D alpha cards. And that's a big reason why you couldn't fly in old Silver Moon because it would look like a movie set with all the fake painted walls and you know limited camera angles that were engineered into it back then. That's just, you know, that's just how it was built back in the day. But uh, you know, nowadays, obviously, with the world building that we do in in Warcraft, we need it to be immersive, we need it to be expansive, so fully 3D. All the buildings had to be reimagined in 3D and you know, built up to modern fidelity. But we also look at what made those areas special, so colors. The shape language, the overall vibe. We really look at those core elements of what make those things really successful from an art perspective and from a player perspective. And we we really try to expand upon it. We use those things kind of as like a like a North Star to guide our creative decision making as we go through updating the visuals. Or, and you know, in the case of Zulamon, really uh building something that wasn't there before, building an expansive empire.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Yeah, and you absolutely crushed it. Uh Silver Moon is a I I I can't use enough hyperbole, it's a towering achievement. It was a jaw-dropping moment. Uh it's amazing. It really is. I don't know. Thanks. There aren't enough, there are not enough kudos I can think of to give the team on just how awesome it is, and it's just been phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Oh, thanks, man.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

That means a lot. I will say I used to play World of Warcraft. I haven't played in quite some time, but I remember Silver Moon like originally, and then I did get a chance. Crew shared it with me, the new version of it, uh or however you want to say it. And it does look phenomenal. Oh, thanks, man. I I really I kind of wish I had a chance to experience it that way back then, but it's awesome that it's available to people now. I just imagine like a cardboard box kind of city, right? Where you have like the fascia and you go on the backside of it and it's there's nothing there. Like, like how how that could have worked.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

So if you ever if you ever fly in and out of Orgramar on a on a wind rider, there are bridges that go over the river next to next to Orgramar. And you'll you'll watch it, and the the top of the bridge kind of has like a cone, conal structure that comes up, and when you're when you're as you're turning as the camera turns, you can see it where it's only like you only kind of see it halfway. It's exactly what what Jordan was talking about, the 2D kind of thing. So depending on the angle that you look at it, you'll kind of lose half of it, and you'll see that oh you know, it's only it's only showing full in this one direction and it kind of splits the other way.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

I know change mode it it literally it just doesn't render properly.

SPEAKER_04 24:15

Yeah, it doesn't render on the other side. And yeah, and I gotta tell you, I never I never I never gave uh Blizzard a demerit for that. I I was like it was still so awesome to play who cares? Like if who's gonna nitpick about that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:28

But yeah, it's it's the the aspect of skywriting has definitely changed how we build things too, you know, because you can basically go anywhere, fly, fly anywhere, almost anywhere. Um so it we can't cut corners or yeah, you can't fall back on that old uh that old game design or game art trick back in the day, uh, as we once did. It's it's gotta be gotta be 3D now.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

And and I guess you mentioned that old trick. Um, I I've seen screenshots from uh I don't know how they do it, but basically they zoom out on the camera angle somehow in Diablo 2, and you can see like literally where it's just black space, like they only designed so far, and and they only designed what was absolutely necessary to to like show for the player, and if and if you zoom the camera out a even just a little bit, it's just there's nothing, right? And it's not something you really think of because like you only ever see that one camera angle, and if it feels it does feel so immersive, but you can't can't cut corners like that, uh in a world where people can just go everywhere. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Did you play D2 like recently, like let's say prior to D2R, but like but like much later in the cycle, like say in the 2010s or you know 2020? So if you if you play that on a modern on a modern computer, you needed to use a couple of add-ons to make it work correctly, like a a glide wrap. And you can see that in the larger monitors, you'll see as sometimes when you're going, you'll see the game rendering as you go, and like you'll see on the sides of the screen, you'll see like the the like little like you know, shopping block kind of thing where the on the edges of the screen, because it's just it's it's doing it on the fly as you're going.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, the tile sets pop in because they're exactly yeah. It's it's not meant to uh work at certain resolutions, you know? It wasn't really designed. The the old one wasn't designed to do that because that was you know the that era of games, it had a certain set of aspect ratios and resolutions that it was working for. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

So then, has there been any particular zone or expansion that felt especially challenging and rewarding for you from an art perspective?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Oh, so many. Uh so many for me personally. I think I think each zone and expansion has its own set of you know unique challenges, as it were. Is it all right if I choose a zone and an expansion for my answer? Is that is that allowed? You can do whatever you want. Okay. I don't want to be rude. It's your podcast.

SPEAKER_03 27:12

I don't know, no, this this is this is your time.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Like we're just here to we're just here to listen to right, and feel free to take all the time to explain why for each one too. Like we we love getting gritty with stuff.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

For the zone, I for for me, it was probably Surimar in Legion. I spent almost a year working on that one, and it had a ton of challenges. It was uh it was just started later in production, there were a ton of technical hurdles that we had to overcome. The whole city was kind of built like a bowl, meaning when you stood from almost any point in the city, you could see a huge section of the city. So, you know, we were just talking about this. The the video card would have to draw all of it on screen. There wasn't anything occluding from um, you know, your camera from drawing the rest of the city. So it was it was tough. And on top of that, there were two other huge architectural elements that were visible from far away. You had the floating city of Dalaran, and you had the Tumba Sargaris raid, all visible from the city. And it it looked epic, but it was a performance nightmare for a lot of the machines um that our players had. So I remember like sitting in so many meetings with people being like, these machine specs that players use, the you know, the frame rate just drops. It's like uh it's like they're playing a slideshow. I would go in and I'd reduce try counts on all the props everywhere to get it to run. I had to hand make LOD models. Uh, that's love love detail models, by the way, for for those curious.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Everyone that's listening that's uh that plays you know D2R would immediately we're thinking LOD as in the expansion. Yeah, that was my first thought as well. That's what I wanted to be clear about. That's immediately where I went, but I appreciate you defining that.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

It's just it's like these game terms. I just yeah, I want to I want to be clear. Yeah, love love detail models. So, like when you're far away, a lower triangle count model and like a lower resolution texture on that model pops in to make it a little bit more performant for for machines and easier for the video card to draw them on screen, right? So we have an automated system that helps with that, but I had to do a lot of those by hand to get them to be visible from far away and still perform it. And it was it was very tedious, but all that being said, you know, I think it turned out great. Sorumar, I think, is still one of the best cities we've made. It still looks incredible, um, in my opinion. For the expansion, I'd say um, I'd say midnight really challenged us in a lot of different ways. I think we we had to really rethink how we approach prop art in general, because like I mentioned before, I think I mentioned this before, most props kind of take a back seat um visually and provide some sense of ambiance. Um, but housing really changed all that. Uh, you know, in the past we do some things for props to make them more performant and easier for the game. If there's a prop that goes into the ground, we we cut off some of the bottom geometry on the 3D model where it goes into the ground because you know you're you're never really gonna see those things on a 3D model. So it saves a few triangles here and there, but the savings add up over time. But you know, with housing, you can rotate things upside down, you can scale them up, you can scale them down, place things any which way you want. So we had to fundamentally change how we approach making props. And on top of that, you know, some things are tintable, you can customize the color. It was just it was a lot. It it it all required us to sort of approach prop art from a different perspective because people were just straight up interacting with our art in a different way than before. You know, something like a basket or a simple prop like that in the past, we'd just be like, Yep, you know, that's that's a basket. But now we have to consider how it's gonna be used in housing. You know, what if someone scales us up? You know, what if they are they gonna put stuff inside of it? Things like that. So I will say, like, for all of its challenges, though, I I do think it also turned out awesome. I think you know, we were we were talking about this um earlier. People have made some insanely creative things with housing. Uh and you know, when you uh when you give agency to the players, you get epic things, and that's that's kind of exactly what we've been seeing.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

And I imagine folks are doing things that you never even considered. Um yeah, like when you give that much rain to people, not only will they do things that you didn't expect, but um they'll find ways to to like to break things, I guess, right? So um yeah, and and so like when you are designing stuff for this, you do some kind of testing to to see if you can break things. Can you recall any time when like you you ended up having to change something after the fact because it was being exploited for housing?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Not so much exploits, I think it's more like it's more visual stuff that that would be breaking. Um, like the bottom caps on geometry. Like I said, people could rotate certain things, and then when you turn things upside down, it's like, wait, where's the geometry? It's invisible. Where did it go? Uh I can't see it. And then we'd have to come in and like cap off bottom geometry. We'd have to, you know, take into account if things get scaled up, how's the texture resolution gonna hold up? We ask ourselves questions like that all the time because you just ultimately don't know how people are gonna use things. That's part of the fun and creativity of housing. So it kind of required us, like I said, to look at things in a different light than we we normally do. Uh, nothing so far uh at the time of this recording, knock on wood, nothing uh game-breaking uh or exploitable. That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

So we kind of touched on this a little earlier, but how does prop art specifically support the player experience? Uh, specifically when you're going from let's say zone to zone or expansion to expansion.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Oh man, I I feel like I could also talk your ear off about this one. Um, that notion of ambient storytelling that I mentioned earlier, um, kind of like telling a story without using words, that really helps us approach kind of the the overarching story of an entire expansion from a different angle. So you'll get a view of you know what's what's going on from an NPC in like quest text or a voiceover or a cutscene, but there's also the smaller scale storytelling that happens when you look at the environment. That's that's really kind of like where the power of props comes into play. So since we, you know, we mentioned it recently, Silverman City and Midnight, we have the Blood Elves, they're heavy magic users, they're sophisticated, they're elegant, they're perhaps a little bit snobbish. They'd rather enchant a broom to magically sweep their house than do it themselves, right? That's they've got better things to do, you know. Side note, we do actually have a self-sweeping magical broom in the game. There's there's also like there's magical floating bottles that pour glasses, there's self-swinging magical hammers, there's floating books that have pages that turn themselves, you know. The and the list goes on and on. But really seeing how these cultures live their their daily lives, the things they make, how they eat and sleep, that's that's where pop art comes in. That's that's immersion, right? That that helps ground the player in the stakes of every single zone. So if you if you look at D2R, for example, you look at the fire pit in act one in the rogue encampment. There's bowls, there's plates, there's mugs, there's cooking implements around the campfire, you know. Did the townsfolk use them? Did other adventurers use them? They look dingy, are they running low on supplies? It's it's things like that that help you get your imagination into high gear as you're going into these spaces.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Yeah, it's like like the mundane details that make a space feel lived in. Yeah. Exactly. You're dressing it up in a way that makes it feel like it just sets the tone for the the area that you're in.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

The day-to-day minutiae.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Yeah, exactly. Oh so I imagine it's tricky. You're not just updating textures, you're essentially when when you're working on World of Warcraft, especially like classic, whatever, uh, you're you're updating memories. Oh absolutely. So even though every blizzard world has its own identity, there's still a shared creative philosophy behind them. So let's zoom out a little bit and talk about that shared DNA.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

So Diablo 2 Resurrected has always had a very strong sense of atmosphere, and many of the World of Warcraft zones are equally memorable. So, from an artistic perspective, what goes into creating such a strong sense of atmosphere in World of Warcraft?

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Man, uh, D2R's atmosphere is like that's the kind of stuff that stays with you, you know? Same for WoW, I would say. I think some of those starting zones will just forever be in my brain, be a part of me. I think I think atmosphere is it's one of those things that's equal parts art, also equal parts vibe or how it makes you feel, like sort of what emotions it can evoke. I think it atmosphere specifically just it goes beyond game mechanics or what buttons you're pressing. I think atmosphere is one of those things that when it really works, it's because all of the parts are complementing the other parts, right? I think to do that, it's it's really important for all of us on the team to be aligned in what we're collectively building, right? From from a narrative sense, from an artistic sense. I think that making something that is visually compelling is oftentimes much easier than making something that is visually compelling and a cohesive package. I think that's where you get a strong sense of atmosphere in any game, right? It's like a it's like a perfectly balanced culinary delight, you know, a perfectly made meal. All the all the flavors are are there and working together in unison.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

So when building an environment in WoW, how do different disciplines like environment, uh, lighting and sound collaborate to support the overall mood of a zone?

SPEAKER_01 37:46

There's that uh that old phrase, teamwork makes the dream work. And I think I think that perfectly kind of encapsulates just how involved it is that what you know when we make a zone for WoW, there's so many moving parts and disciplines that go into making it a reality. I think it really starts with a rough set of ideas, what we want to explore narratively, and then from the art side of things, we typically start with what's called a postcard image uh that our amazing pizza dev team whips up. So for those unaware, like a postcard image, we call it that because you know, if you were to theoretically travel there, you wanted to buy a postcard, send it home to mom and dad, it would have some picturesque vista that captures the look and feel of it, right? That's where we dig in first, kind of like all the other world art teams start collaborating and and making the building blocks together. So environment art is a huge part of it. That's things like terrain tile sets, zone lighting, shadows, fog, all those things have an like intensity and color knobs you can turn to fiddle with. And on top of that, there's there's prop art, there's architecture. That's kind of where we start marrying together shape language, common materials, unified color palettes. You know, working on this is really a close partnership with all the world art teams. We're constantly communicating, tweaking the art that's being made to fit with ultimately what our friends and other teams are creating. But it's it's not just about the art either. I think sound is also equally big and important part of atmosphere. Matt Woolman helped create compose the the Diablo 2 soundtrack. And, you know, like those things just live rent-free in my brain, all those songs. Like I can I can close my eyes and I can I can just hear the music when you roll out into the blood moor and uh you know, on a new character in act one. It's it's incredibly powerful stuff. But um, what does that track wilderness? I think it's called wilderness, yeah. Yeah, it's just but yeah, sound is just so hugely important and powerful. I think that's that's one very, very important part of atmosphere. And when when we're working on a new zone, um, you know, or a prop sometimes too, the sound team will come in and be like uh asking folks, all right, what's the vibe of the space you're building? You know, what's the story we're trying to tell here? And they'll uh they'll work their magic, you know. Uh it never ceases to amaze me.

SPEAKER_04 40:12

We talked a little bit earlier just recently about the atmosphere. You know, when when Diablo 2 had uh been a while in the tooth and Diablo 3 was announced and then it came out, a lot of Diablo players criticized Diablo 3's uh color palette, and one of the things they said was it's too bright, it's too world of warcrafty. And when you mentioned atmosphere, it got me to thinking about my first initial uh experience in Tirus Fall Glades. So Tirusfall Glades is the starting area for the undead. When I started, I played an Alliance character up to maybe level eight or nine, I don't remember how long, and then I just decided to roll the mage that I still play to this day, uh, an undead mage. I have never forgotten, and it's never come gotten away from me the feeling and the emotion that I felt going through Tearsfall that very first time and experiencing that zone. When you start in there, you start as oh, you've just woken up undead from the starting area to the first little town that you go to called Brill, there's this long walk through a desolate forest landscape and the trees are dead, the grass is dead, there are demon dogs running around, and everything is quiet and eerie. The atmosphere is this kind of heavy, uh, you know, there's just it's so powerful and overwhelming. And I always thought to myself, if people who, you know, who criticize Diablo 3 would have experienced Tearsfall Glades, they would never have gone, it's too Warcrafty, because they would have known that Warcraft had its own darkness in it. And I'm not even talking about Darkshire because I wasn't an Alliance player long enough to experience that. And I've from everything I've been told, uh, Darkshire is just one of the creepiest places in the game.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Equally creepy. Yeah, it's I think it's really cool that you mentioned Tearsfall. That place, the atmosphere, since we were just talking about that, it is palpable. Like it's it is eerie, like you said. There is just a hint of dread that you get uh walking along those paths with the fog, with the the very solemn, just just slightly unsettling music playing in the background, somewhat serene, but but still keeping you on your toes, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's there's there's nothing like that. That's that's the kind of stuff that stays with you when you think atmosphere.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

It really does. And when I like when I replay it on Classic, it's just it's just so much, it's just incredible. It really is. It really just harkens back and it just takes you to that that moment and that feeling. So, how closely do artists work with the narrative and qu narrative or quest designers when you're shaping a space? And how early in the process does the storytelling influence the visual direction?

SPEAKER_01 42:55

For a while, like every step of the way. Uh, and it's it's crazy awesome. Narrative and quest folks will work very closely with art folks from the get-go and we'll brainstorm ideas all the way from like you know, major visual themes for the zone, all the way down to like the smaller uh like local stories that we want to tell. It's it's highly collaborative. That's a big reason why it's for me, it's so creatively fulfilling, and you know, probably for so many other people. But I think I I think I mentioned this earlier. Like one of the things Chris Metzen says uh when we have meetings with him is you know, the idea that everything is storytelling, not just how we write quest text, but how the story notes and themes kind of affect everything. So, you know, what what are the emotions that we're trying to evoke? What are the themes we want to explore? What notions do we want to challenge? How do we convey wonder uh and a sense of adventure? Or, you know, like we were just talking about, crude, like um feeling. Of fear, despair, you know, stuff like that. All those things help inform the artists working on it, you know, how to approach building a space from our color choices, you know, um, and all the hand-painted textures that we get to make uh down to how we light a space or the fog that we use. It's it's all storytelling. And I will say this like, and working working closely with quest designers also helps prevent what we like to call art crimes from happening. So oftentimes they'll have this cool idea of what they want to do. They'll, I don't know, blow up a barrel as part of a quest. Uh, they might spawn something in that was made in like 2004 that you know the game's been out for a really long time. They might use a very, very old asset, and that's where we get to collaborate with them and be like, hey, that one's kind of crusty looking. Uh, like I can count the pixels on that texture on that barrel that you're blowing up. Like, here's here's the new one I just made. Why don't we try that one instead?

SPEAKER_03 45:01

All right. I think we'll take a quick break, and when we come back, we will continue our conversation with Jordan. This episode is brought to you by our D2R Discord and subreddit. Come join our community of over 100,000 combined members. Ask questions, interact with other players, get real-time updates on Diablo clone and terror zones, join voice channels and kill hordes together, enter our giveaways, or just hang out and chat. If you love D2R as much as we do, be sure to check it out. Links in the description. And we're back. So, we've talked a lot about process and collaboration. Now we want to shift gears and talk about things from your personal perspective as an artist.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

So, from your perspective, Jordan, as an artist, what makes a fantasy environment visually compelling regardless of the game that it's in?

SPEAKER_01 46:04

I think for me personally, uh fantasy worlds that are super compelling and kind of stand the test of time really demonstrate a like a command of color, light, uh, and kind of just emotions across a spectrum, how things make you feel. I think that's that's really important and really special in a fantasy game. If it has range like that, it's gonna hook me and it's gonna it's gonna keep me hooked. I just I know it. If a fantasy game can kind of introduce multiple environments or biomes and have each one feel distinctive enough artistically, you know, with some of that underlying visual connective tissue that I mentioned earlier, um, that's like a real sign of mastery of craft. It goes beyond just what you're seeing, it kind of becomes more of an experience, you know? That's the kind of stuff that really sticks with you. Uh, because I think it doesn't just leave a taste in your mouth, you you remember all that it made you feel, uh, you know, as a player, as a viewer, as a fan, all the above. I think that's really what makes fantasy game environments compelling for me.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

So, do you have a favorite Diablo 2 setting artistically? Something that really stuck with you visually? And what about it stands out?

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Oh man, that's so hard. I have I have so many favorites. I will say I really, I really like Luke Golane. Um, I lot of I like a lot of the settings in act one. The one that really stands out for me uh is Haragith, Act Five. It's just so insanely cool to me. Like City Under Siege vibe, all of that, sort of a, you know, like a calm oasis amongst all the chaos surrounding it.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

You step right outside the gate and there's war. You know what I mean? Like that that it's there's like a juxtaposition between like it feels calm in the city, even though it maybe isn't, but you go through that gate and there's siege weapons, right? Like, yeah, it's yeah, it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

You get that sense of dread or just like lingering dread, uh, just from how you're going around and interacting and looking at all the art in the town, too. I think I was gonna say the remastered haragith in D2R looks absolutely incredible. And as a prop artist, this is me nerding out for a minute here, but they added like there's so many juicy details, you guys. There's like there's sacks of grain with apples, there's crates, there's weapon racks, the tents, the tents have tables with things on them. They did an absolutely amazing job of not only just like uprising it, but and keeping the same vibe, but also expanding on it, which I think is is really difficult to do. And there's just there's so much storytelling in there that there wasn't before.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Also, why it stands out is because I spent a lot of time, a lot of time in there now doing bail runs nowadays, uh, but also doing like back in the day, you guys remember Bloody Foothill and Pindle Runs. Um, yeah, yep. And like the music is so good on the Haragh track when the horns come in, oh, it just it hits differently. It makes you it makes you feel like something epic uh is about to happen. Yeah, I mean, just so many good memories hearing that music and being being in Haragh for me. That's that's what it's gotta be. Do you do you flex along with Larzik? Do I flex along with Larzik?

SPEAKER_04 49:49

He does do a fair bit of flexing, doesn't he? He is very proud of his muscles, man. I love it. Is there a Diablo 2 boss you've always loved visually? And do you think it would be fun to see interpreted in a in a wow art style?

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Oh man, so the easy answer here, I think, is gonna be the butcher, even though I know he's not technically a boss. Um, and we did do a nod to him in the high mall raid as one of the bosses there, but I think he was just he was he was like an ogre, not really like a demonic berserker type of character. But if we're talking bosses, though, honestly, for me, Bale would be so sick to see in a Warcraft art style. I think his his design is just it's kind of bonkers if you think about it. It's like a quadruped with crazy horns, you got tentacle spikes, there's you know, that creepy face only a mother could love. It sounds so insane. I would love to see how that would be translated. Um, even though I know our maybe our character art team and rigging team might not be as enthusiastic about all that as I am. Um, I'm sure there's some challenges doing that and making it move, but that would be really cool, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

You know what I just you know what I just saw recently, and I don't know how true this is, but apparently Bale's face is actually not his face, he's wearing the face of somebody else that's like creepy stretched stretched across his face. That's so metal. I love it. I I don't I don't know how true that is, but I saw I think I saw it on a Reddit. Uh someone had posted some details about it, and they had had a screenshot. If they hadn't said that, I wouldn't have thought about it. But after I read that and I saw the picture, I was like, oh man, that could be true. I don't I don't know. Uh I've never I've they kind of dug into the lore a little bit uh about it. I'll see if I can find it and maybe put it in the the description of the video. I'll put a link to the Reddit post. Uh that's wild. But I I never never never even thought about that and and didn't know that that was part of the lore.

SPEAKER_04 52:04

What if it's Marius's face?

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Uh no, I think it I think it was one of the guys from I just threw it into Google for you.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Up um, he's not wearing a mask, he is possessing the body of Tal Rasha, and the face, the human face on his head is Talrasha's actual skin stretched over his demonic visage. There you go. That's crazy. That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. That is wild. And you know what's wild.

SPEAKER_03 52:32

And what's even more wild is that like 20 years later, we're still learning stuff. Yeah. Yep. You know, so like the the lore, the lore is so good. Yeah. Uh let's get a little more into the craft itself.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

At a high level with that, what kinds of tools or workflows are important for modern game art in today's world?

SPEAKER_01 52:59

So I I get asked this question quite frequently from like mostly like newer artists looking to get in the game industry and game art too. I would argue that it's not really about the tools you're using. I think it's I think the core art fundamentals are vital to anything that you do. Uh, things like light, color, perspective, form, composition, anatomy if you're into characters, all those skills I think are gonna be what will translate into whatever tools you use. That way, whatever, you know, software or tool you ultimately use, whatever 3D software you use or texturing tool you use, whether it's you know, like substance or 3D coat, Maya, 3D Studio Max, Blender, whatever it is. I think ultimately those things are just tools in your theoretical Batman utility belt of art tools. You understand kind of how to achieve a certain look, and you have options for how to do that. Because in art, there is no direct path from point A to point B, right? There's tons of different ways for you to get there. And I think what matters is the end result. If you master those fundamentals, the rest of the pieces are gonna fall into place. That's why, like for my team, no one's forcing anyone to use a specific 3D package to model or UV something. It all really comes down to what is more comfortable for the artist to use. Like I said, there's no direct path from A to B, right? So the end result is really what matters most, I think.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

That's fair. Uh, you did mention UV. What is that?

SPEAKER_01 54:46

Ah, so everything uh in a 3D model that's textured is wrapped with a flat 2D texture. It's like unwrapping a Christmas present, you know. Um, if you laid it out, you can see like, oh, this is on the right side, this is on the left side, this is the top, this is the bottom, this is, you know, we have to unwrap things. Um in uh UV just stands for um the horizontal and vertical orientation for the 2D plane. So anything that's in 3D has a flat 2D texture. You might see them sometimes when you check out like um people go data mining and stuff and look at the texture files in a game, you'll see the really creepy flattened uh character faces that look we were just talking about like stretched faces on veil. It it looks like that, it looks really creepy, but it it's meant to wrap over a 3D uh three-dimensional uh object. Okay, I was gonna ask you about that. Go ahead, Greg.

SPEAKER_04 55:44

Yeah. No, I was just gonna what you just talked about. I was gonna ask you about that. Like, what was the I've seen that before. I've seen it in some of the uh when they display like the art contest winners, they'll have that little box and it has like the stretched out faces and it looks like all the little assets in a box, and I was curious about it. I didn't I yeah, so thanks.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

That's the team.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

I think I've seen them before. My wife's a big Sims player, and some of like they have like mod menus and stuff, and some of like the clothing and stuff, they actually have that stretched out look to it. So kind of cool to be able to see that and now know that that's what you're referring to.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Yeah, it's it's like meant to wrap around a 3D model in a very specific way, and uh, you know, since it's it goes every which way, the 3D model does, the the texture usually has to match it. Uh, so that's why you get the weird uh yeah, stretched, stretched face look when you when you look at a character texture usually or the UVs.

SPEAKER_03 56:48

How has advancing technology influenced the way artists approach world building?

SPEAKER_01 56:53

I think when you you work with a game engine that's perhaps a bit on the older side, like like WoW, uh any sort of advancement or new tech, it's like, man, this is incredible. Especially when you compare it to how things were made, like for vanilla wow back in the day. I remember like one of one of my old bosses telling us a story. He was like, Yeah, back then we were working on uh Dunmore, and this guy spent days trying to sculpt this winding path of you know terrain up to Ironforge, and I our tools just couldn't handle it. Somehow he did it. We were in awe, and you know, you look at it, it was literally like a ramp up a mountain. But like obviously, now our terrain tools are much more advanced, we can do more crazy things with terrain topology. Our LOD system is much more sophisticated. Again, that's not Lord of Destruction, that's level of detail. Uh I appreciate you clarifying. Yeah, yeah, no worries, no worries. Uh, we can just we can do more with geometry and textures than in the past. So, um, you know, the same is true for like lighting and zone fog, all that stuff. One of the things that used to be a huge time sink for character artists was uh was helm fitting or literally manually adjusting the 3D object of every helm in the game to go on every body type and race for playable races. It was, as you can imagine, uh it was a little tedious, but you know, now with the help of some machine learning, uh it takes only a few minutes and it allows our artists to spend more time making, you know, more awesome mounts, more weapons, more armor for players to enjoy. It's it's a really good use of tech, in my opinion, because it supports the artists making the art, it doesn't circumvent them. And yeah, we take a very handcrafted approach to how we build World of Warcraft. And I think that's you know, it's very important to us, uh, not just the art and world building, you know, but I think how we approach kind of like making the game in general.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

Yeah, and and like it's not something you really think about generally, but like with with the older tools, like when you design a helmet, it's it's gonna the proportions are gonna be different, like it's gonna look differently on a torin versus uh you know, say a troll, right? So uh I guess that's not something I ever really considered.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

And then you factor in like in modern WoW, we've got allied races, right? There's there's tons more playable races than there were before. Every time we add a new one, it can if we didn't have that tech, it would just be this cumulative cost every single helm that we add to the game, you know. Now that we have it, you know, like I said, we get to actually uh get some time back and use it to to make other cool things. It's pretty great.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

Is there a common misconception that players have about how game art is made?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

I think there are definitely some misconceptions uh about game art in general, or just you know, how games are made broadly. There's that that one sort of like misconception, I think, that it only requires good software or tools, perhaps little artistic skill, which I you know I don't I don't think is true, obviously. I art is intrinsically like highly collaborative, it's a just a collaborative process in general, and it requires input from multiple places, uh, sorry, multiple people to for it to be refined. Art isn't really made in in minutes either. It can take time to go from an idea into something that is actually usable and looks good. Uh, there is no magical make art button uh to make things game ready. It it takes, you know, it takes the hand of a skilled artist and it takes uh feedback from different people to mold it into something that's ready for the game engine to handle. And you know, it it sometimes it doesn't matter how beautiful something is, if it won't work in the game engine, people can't see it and they can't enjoy it. So performance is also very important too.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

At your level, how do you balance the hands-on art and art making process with mentorship and direction with your team?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Man, great question. Uh I think the more senior you become on any team, the more experience you get. When you start stepping into like a leadership position, it's less about what you are creating and it's more about the body of work that your team creates, right? It becomes it's more about their success and how you can support and challenge them. And that's something that I really take seriously. Like properly challenging people, helping set them up for you know, the slam dunk, as it were. Uh, that's really important to me as a leader. Uh, mentorship is definitely a part of that. I think in the mentorship space, I've been lucky enough to work with like a lot of amazing people. And uh I'm I'm really proud I'm gonna gush for a moment. Uh you know, many of the artists that I've mentored over the years have found a job at Blizzard, uh, many of whom I get to I get to work alongside now. Uh so it's it's rewarding, it's insanely gratifying to just not only see people thrive, but like I get to work alongside them, you know? It's it's so great. Uh but as far as like being hands-on, I I obviously don't prioritize making that art as much as I uh as I do my team and making sure everyone's happy and healthy. So um, you know, but occasionally I do get to do some art and it's great. I I do like to lead by example where I can. I think for me, it's important to show people on your team that you're still able to get down and do the stuff that they do, share what you're doing with your own team. To borrow like the pirate ship analogy, I try to be the captain who can, you know, tie the knots, hoist the sails, you know, steer the ship, all you know, all that stuff as much as I can. I try to do that because I think it's I think it's really important to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:30

I agree. When I when I managed a company here in Las Vegas, uh one of the things that I always made sure of was that, you know, I did all the stuff that we did, and I didn't just, you know, like kind of like sit back and not do that. I wanted, you know, to always like keep in touch with that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:47

Yeah, I mean, like leadership, your people want to know that you're able to do the stuff that you're asking from them. Yeah. I don't know how many of you have ever had bosses that would be like, I would never ask you to do anything that I couldn't do myself, or something to that effect. Um and to some degree I think that's true. Like, especially in I would imagine in the artistic world, that might be even more true.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:17

Yeah, and I mean, like, taking it way back, I I'm an Eagle Scout. Back in Boy Scouts, I I tried to do the exact same thing. I tried to, you know, when you ask people to do something, um, when you're like a patrol leader or a senior patrol leader, it's it's important to like to lead by example in certain cases to show that you you do know what you're talking about, you can do the stuff that that they can, and um it's uh I think it builds trust and I think it it builds camaraderie too. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Yeah, and I think that's that that ability to get into the trenches with your guys makes the very uh difference between being a boss versus a leader. When you're not just someone that's barking those orders or like make this happen to actually get down there with the guys be like, you know, let's try this. Uh I you know I've had had the same issue, let's go this route, and I think that's really cool that you're that's how you face your team, that it's not I'm in charge, it's more of uh what can we do to make this work? And uh that's just uh a sign of a great leader there. Oh, thanks, man. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:26

Yeah, I mean one of the things like from my from my life that I always try to remember is uh there's a saying, I think it goes something like if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. Uh and I think you know that that kind of the your the way that you were describing things really kind of uh reminded me of that a lot. Yeah, I like that notion. That's cool. Yeah, I think it's a I want to say it's an old African proverb. I could be wrong, uh I I know I read it somewhere and it always just stuck with me. And I like I try to remember that and in like the work that I do. So uh behind all the tools and techniques, there's a human side to this work, and I want to touch on that for just a moment. How do you stay creatively inspired after years of working in the same universe?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

I think part of it is just the fact that Warcraft has just always been a part of my life in one way or another. Like from the RTS to wow, uh, it's just that fantasy world that I've grown to love. It's uh it might sound super corny. I don't mean it to sound corny, but I just love the fantasy. Many of us on my team play and enjoy the game in our own free time. So having a having a passion, I guess, and appreciation for the game is is really what helps keep you grounded, I think. Um the other part, I think we have an insanely talented group of people at Blizzard and on the Water Warcraft team in general, with that many talented folks, if you're a creative-minded person, being around that in itself is just constantly inspiring. I think it it keeps you growing your own skills, especially when you see stuff that other people are doing. The culture is is one of knowledge sharing. So, whatever you're working on, whether it's like hand painting a wooden texture uh for a crate, modeling fur on a creature, chances are there are some experts on that on the team, and they will give you a whole demo on how to do it, uh, which is great. Uh, we have regular knowledge shares and mini uh demos, demonstrations on the prop art team. And um, I think it's great. Uh other teams do that as well, and it it really helps people grow. The culture, the atmosphere, and the people that are a part of it, I think are also what really help keep this like fresh and rewarding for me too.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:56

Who are some of your biggest artistic influences, inside or outside Blizzard?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Oh man, uh, too many. Uh let's see. I play a ton of Magic of the Gathering, and there are a ton of artists that I admire in that space. Let's see. Richard King Ferguson, Mark Tadin, uh Rebecca Gay, John Avon, Gesper Ising, Niels Ham, Kev Walker, Mark Poole. I could probably fill all stone into Paris Podcast talking about artists that I find inspiring. As far as like traditional artists outside the TCG space, like obviously illustrators from like the golden age of illustration, maybe more familiar with the folks listening, uh, Ed Hopper, NC Wyeth, Maxfield Parrish, Lion Decker. Yeah, the I mean the list goes on and on. Real masters of their craft. As far as like people that have worked at Blizzard over the years, that I've been lucky to work with. Eric Braddock is a friend of mine. He's done a lot of work on WoW and Hearthstone. Really amazing illustrator. Wei Wang is a legend. Uh Glenn Rain, Jimmy Lowe, they're the goats, you know. I mean, whenever I see concepts or paintings from them, it's like they just it takes my breath away. Like absolutely world-class artists.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

So, what part of the creative process do you and your team get the most excited about?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:22

Oh, I know I can speak for my team on this one. I think texturing, put putting some of that art in game art, you know, like uh, because World of Warcraft has a stylized hand-painted like art style. Uh, and when I say hand-painted, I mean just that by the way. Like every wood grain, every wood texture, every bit of moss on a rock, every metal rivet has been painted, uh, hand painted by an artist. So like you can literally see some painterly brush strokes in certain textures, really gives you that kind of like illustrative feel that I mentioned earlier when you when you get to experience the game. I think that phase of our creative process, when you take something that's has like a temporary texture on it, maybe like a flat color, and you start painting it and bringing it to life, that is very special to us art folks. You get to you get to breathe life into something and you get to do a little bit of world building too. Um, there's there's really nothing else like it. We we absolutely love that part of the process. And I think it's even more gratifying when you know you get to see things that other teams are doing and you start to see things solidifying in the the game engine um that we use internally to like to test things, you so you slowly start to see the big picture take shape, right? Uh, kind of like right in front of your eyes. And I I think there's something really magical and creatively fulfilling about that that part of the process for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:53

I want to share with you when it comes to let's say the uh forest biomes or uh you know anything let's say Sylvan, if you will. Uh I'm more of a Grizzly Hills Azure Peak Silver Pine fan, as opposed to as opposed to say like Ardenwield, Harindar kind of thing. But a mere Drasil. Wow. When that zone first launched, and I went into that zone, I was absolutely stunned with the beauty of it. The the curving of the leaves, the the the way they they flow in and out. There's a almost magical quality to it that made the Emerald Dream come alive before your eyes. I know I'm being very flowery and full of hyperbole, but but it really was I remember talking about it in my guild when the first time when we first started playing in that zone. I was like, I can't believe how good this looks, it's incredible. It's just because that type of thing, like I'm not I'm not a huge fan of like the flowery mushroom type things. I mean, they're fine, it's just it's that's not my biggest thing, but but that particular zone captured what you were just saying about you know like getting that in in there, and that's what I think of when I think of the the painterly and the the artistic styling. Amir Dressot was was just amazing to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

Yeah, and I I remember um I mentioned this earlier, like there's experts on the team that are really good at certain things. I remember I was working on Borales, and there was someone on the team who was really amazing at painting wood textures, and there's a lot of wood in Borales and in in you know in culture and society in general. And he did a a quick demo for me on how he approached his wood painting. And like I looked at the end result, and yeah, you can you can feel and see the brush strokes and the gestures that he was making with when painting that stuff. When you see it in context in the game, when you see what other teams are doing to help fulfill that fantasy, and you know, other brushstrokes, other contribute uh contributions from other artists are visible. It it does have that that feeling you mentioned. It's just it's I don't know how else to describe it, it's just a really magical feeling when you see it all come together.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:18

I guess just to add a little bit more, um, from my perspective, um, I really always loved Ngoro Crater. Yes. Like, like I I don't know what it is. Like, I know there's there's probably arguably better areas of the game. Um, but it like for some reason, like that path going down into it, like the transition from the landscape. Like, if I remember correctly, it goes from like kind of a a dry area, and you just you go on down into this like really lush environment. There's like dinosaurs, and like it's just like I I it just always it always stuck out in my mind, and I I spent a lot of time there as a leather worker, you know, as you can imagine. Oh yeah. Um, so uh but you know, back when I played, uh I just I just always really loved that area. Maybe maybe it's just because the the difference from the environment, it's so stark, but also just like the stuff in it, and there's like you know, and lava area and like just all of it is just very cool. It always was kind of like my favorite zone.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:26

There's dinosaurs.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:28

Yeah, I'm an I'm a nerd, what can I say?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:31

No, it's it's such a it's it's a cool zone, man. It's it's like a little bubble, you know. There's yeah, there's dinosaurs, there's the um the karage, the insects to the to the south, there's ancient relics, there's crystals, there's crazy creatures. It's it's a really cool zone for sure. That's that's probably in my top ten of uh favorites of all time.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:52

And do you know the lore behind Ungoro break?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:56

I do not, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:58

It it's it's one of the or it's either it's either the original or one of the original places that the titans tested out life forms on Azeroth.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:10

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:11

I and there and there are remnants of it in the zone. Uh, if you go into Lich King and Sholazar Basin, there's a similar uh feel to the zone because it's a it's another area as well, and that is more expanded upon. So in that zone, you have actual Titan structures that you can there's some in Ongoro as well, but uh there's like a lot of Titan structures in in Sholazar that you can interact with, and you get a deeper understanding of what they were trying to do, and and it evolves the story. Yeah, but we learn about that. Um I know I'm nerding out as I'm talking, but uh yeah, Ongoro is one of the like proving grounds, like the the beta testing for the titans on building life in Azeroth.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:50

Cool. Did not know that. So much lore in the game, so much awesome. I mean, and that's what makes these these games that we love great, right? Like the the lore, the story behind it. Like I I feel like if you didn't have that stuff, even if you had like all the awesome visual and audio stuff, like without that lore, I feel like things still feel flat. So it's it's really really cool to have the lore, the backstory, the understanding of why things are the way they are. Um I think that really matters. All right, so before we wrap up, let's end on something light and fun. Uh we we got really deep there. Um, we'll just take it, take it up a couple notches. Favorite World of Warcraft zone.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:38

Probably probably Westfall for me. I just I love the aesthetic. It's uh it's like that idea of a rundown human settlement on the edge of the continent. It's just it's such a cool vibe for me. Also, many fond memories of running dead mines.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:53

Favorite Diablo 2 act setting.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:56

I think you already touched on this, so maybe it's just a repeat, but if I if I want to steer clear of the favorite area that I talked about earlier in Haraga, I would say my second favorite, act one, I think, because you get hit with that very distinctive and iconic, like gothic aesthetic, it just nails it for me. And that's all that stuff is the first thing you get to experience as a new player, and it just it stays with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:22

Uh, favorite blizzard cinematic, any franchise.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:26

Oh man, that's hard. Wrath of Lich King Cinematic, I think for me wins out. When you hear that my son, the day you were born, the very forest whispered the name Arthis, and I'm just like, oh man, it's like right in the fields, you know. And then he gets to raise in Dragosa. It's just, it's just, it's too epic for me not to mention.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:49

Uh, daytime or nighttime lighting when designing environments. Oh, good question.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:55

Uh I would say nighttime for me, but I I also I love sunset, you know, right? Right when daytime is kind of like retreating and nighttime is creeping out. I think that's a that's a really cool um just time of day.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:13

Coffee or tea while working?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:15

Oh, coffee. Uh lots of coffee, specifically cold brew. I love it. It's my fuel. Uh please don't ask me how much I drink in a day.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:24

If you could design a brand new fantasy environment from scratch with no constraints, what kind of place would it be?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:32

That's tough. Uh I'm biased, uh, but something hand-painted, obviously, something stylized, vibrant colors, full just something full of untethered magic, um, wild chaotic magic, something with a hint of like a long-lost civilization to give players like some history and lore to dig into, potentially. I think, I think that'd be rad.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:58

Jordan, this has been an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your story and perspective on art and world building. So, with that, where can listeners find your work online?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

Uh, first of all, I want to say thank you guys so much for having me. It has been an absolute joy to talk with you. And uh um, yeah, I just I really appreciate it. And if hearing me nerd out about prop art has piqued your interest, or you're a fan of uh player housing and want to see some more cool prop art, um you can check out uh my stuff on ArtStation. It's uh Jordron5000 uh.artstation.com. That's my portfolio. And you can also check out my team's work there as well. Uh, you can just do a search for um the hashtag WaterWarcraft and check out everybody's cool art.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:47

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