SPEAKER_03 0:00

This is Break Yo Bales coming to you from my Sanctuary on the D2R Discord. On this episode, we're joined by Smulps as Crew and I break down our experience at BlizzCon, from the lack of D2R news to an unexpected Diablo 5 announcement and everything in between. Oh, and hey, before we jump into the episode, you may have noticed the new artwork on the episode thumbnail. It's called The Fire Still Burns, which was commissioned specifically for Stay Awai on Listen and created by artist Austin Jacobson. We're also excited to share that the prints are now available through our new shop, including a limited first run featuring the podcast branding and signatures for me and the co-hosts. If you'd like to pick one up and help support the show, head on over to shop.stayawhileandlistenpodcast.com, or just click the link in the description below. Thanks for listening. Thanks for your support, and I hope you enjoy the show. Today, we are joined by the regular cast, Breako Bales, Tyriel, Crude, uh, and we have a very special guest as well. Uh, Smulps is joining us for the third time.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Yes, thanks for having me again. Hooray!

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Glad to have you back.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

We act, yeah, we actually haven't had a repeat guest before in your three time. I don't know if you want to talk about it a little bit, but uh right before this, you were uh competing in in a PvP tournament. Do you want to say a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yeah, sure. So uh I basically started started doing PvP the beginning of this year um in Cooley's DFC. Um so I've been it I'm new to PvP as of the you know January this year. Uh got into it, started with melee. Um, did a lot of stuff in melee, was really into it, and I actually won the title three four times in in melee. Um, but now this this match um today was uh LLD, which is low-level dueling, which is level 30 and under. And I have a fireball sorc that also uses uh hydras. Um so it's a little little different than maybe some others. And again, I'm in here competing using a controller on PC, so kind of just trying to like showcase like yes, you can still compete in PvP um using a controller. There's a sort of there's some differences there, but um for the most part, again, I'm just doing it for fun, just to kind of showcase like hey, it it is possible. So, but I I had the title match today um versus DD, who's a top LLD player on like every class. Um, so it's tough to even get um any round wins versus him, and I got one round win, but he did beat me for one, and he was a charge slash foh paladin. So he still has the title.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

And uh when do those occur? Like, are you gonna get a rematch?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Um, so it's like it's kind of like an ongoing thing, like like the UFC where like every every um event there's like title matches and showcase matches. Um so basically you just sign up weekly on Cooley's Discord and you're like, yeah, I have this build. I say I have an LLD sork and I want to uh compete. Um and then there's an ongoing sort of leaderboard that's like week to week. Um so it's not like a a tournament where it's like over one weekend and it's like uh elimination. It's just you get points based on wins and losses, and then he matches you up based on like kind of where you're at, and then he'll give different people um each week a shot at the title. I did win LLD title once um versus a Zahn, but it's been a while. I'm kind of like still in the middle there, um, like wins and losses, like win loss, win-loss kind of a thing. So kind of like hovering, but it's every Thursday night um at this around this time, like 9 p.m. or 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. Eastern on Coolies Live.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

And so what is it called? Just so everyone knows.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Uh it's the DFC. So it's the Diablo Fighting Championship, I think. It's free, it's just again, you just sign up for the week and it's for fun. It's not super serious, although there are like some very good players in here. There's also new players. So if you were new to the PvP, you would get matched up against somebody who is also new. So it's not like you're going up against like this super high-level person in your first match. So he tries to like balance it that way.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Yeah, and when you win, you actually get a belt, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Yeah, so when you get the title, there's like we, you know, the community has made like belts that says like LLD champion belt, right? But like you use the personalization thing. It's like the only thing to use the personalization for in the game. Um so it's kind of funny. You get like a little belt that's like, you know, I think it's been donated by uh a guy in the dis uh in the DFC Nimrod who gets like a hundred percent perfect string of ears, and that's like the LLD type champion belt. And that's like the typical belt that somebody would use, so you can like actually use it and wear it in LLD and kind of you hold it, and then we pass the belt back and forth based on who wins. Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

That's what I was gonna ask, is you don't get to keep it, you literally have to pass it on.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Yeah, you pass it on, yeah. Yeah, so I had it for one week and then I passed it back.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

Typically, how long does one fight last? Like, like you did you said you did five, so how do how long does each one last on average?

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Yeah, so this is um yeah, like it's FT four, which is first to four, and um, so he won four, I won one. So it was like 10 minutes, right? LLD is not super long because you know you're low level, you don't have super power, but you're also you have like a thousand life, right? So it's just like I consider it just like a fighting game, like any old fighting game that you have, like I don't know, Tekken or whatever, it's just like go round, and then you go kind of like battle, and then you die and you reset, and then you go again, so you have another round. So yeah, it's not super long, but some some matches can be very long, which I kind of like glaze over if the match is going. Like there was one that was like an hour plus and is like just concede, you know, like just move on, right? Like it the purpose isn't supposed to be a two-hour match, it's supposed to be like pretty short.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

I remember stopping in and watching one where I think it was a necro versus something, and and uh they're basically just like casting bone spear in all directions and hoping to hit to like stun lock or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Yeah, like net necro versus um a fire druid is very much teleporting around and just kind of like spamming everything and hope something sort of hits, kind of a thing. Um, so it could be very long in that case. Um, there are other duels that are just more like just go for it, kind of send it and just do a lot of damage and hope that you hit, and you know, you it makes or breaks. I think it's more fun that way to just be like more aggressive. I like to pick builds that are like more on the aggressive side and less on the teleport around and try not to get hit side, just because I don't think that the duel should be two hours long.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Well, uh hopefully you get another chance at the title. Yeah. Um but uh it's really cool that that you know you're in the discord here. It's awesome that you participated. So we're gonna talk about Blizzard. And and I apologize. I managed to pick up some kind of sickness while I was in California. Please bear with me on that. Um, and this conversation is probably gonna meander around a lot. Hopefully we're able to touch on everything. Uh I would like to start the conversation with the the Friday the day before BlizzCon. We were lucky enough to uh uh have a previous guest uh of the show, Jordan Powers. Uh he got us a tour of Blizzard HQ, which was really cool. Crude and his and his son were also uh with us as well. And uh, you know, it it so I didn't really have any uh expectation of or would know what to expect, but it was it was a really cool tour. Really grateful to Jordan for giving us that opportunity. Unfortunately, while we were there, um we found out that the Diablo team had been moved to a different like group of buildings, but like not in the main headquarters. Uh so that was that was interesting. I think they replaced the room that they were in. Um I think they put Hearthstone there, the the Hearthstone team. So uh we weren't able to talk to anyone. Um and and Jordan did say that he tried to get us in there and uh it just wasn't possible. But um, it was really awesome to to meet Jordan. Um yeah, we did we talk uh quite often um and uh it was really nice to meet him in person. He did he gave us a wonderful tour. And uh yeah, just the the sheer amount of I would say uh care and and emotion and uh just like you can really tell that the people there care as much about the games that they work on as the people playing. Uh and it you know, the place is just filled with artwork all over the place from all the games. It's just it was really cool. Um I I don't want to gush about it too much, but it was it was like one of the highlights of of the weekend uh for me. And I don't know, Crude, did you have any thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 10:32

Well, I would just add to the gushing, to be honest with you. Um, you know, I've been playing video games, I don't know, I guess since I was 12, 13 years old when Pac-Man first came out or so, you know, that kind of shows you how old I am. Um, but I started playing Diablo in 2001, and with a very few exceptions, almost every game I've played since has been a Blizzard game. And it's not that I'm swearing off of other studios games, but when I ventured out into playing, say Skyrim, for example, which um, you know, is a really solid game, or Baldur's Gate, which is also really good, what I find is that it lacks something that makes uh me as comfortable as a Blizzard game. There's something about Blizzard games for me personally that just strike a chord of yes, this is where I'm supposed to be. Uh whether it's the UI or the thematic elements or whatever you want to call it. For me, Blizzard makes games that I won't really want to play. And uh, you know, uh I had said this in our in our chat quite a while ago. My son and I do not lack for bonding moments. We've had so many in our lifetime, but a good chunk of them have come from playing WoW and Diablo. There's no escaping that. Um, and you know, to be there with him for that was truly exceptional for me. Uh I'll remember it forever. Uh, and I was really grateful that we got to do it. Jordan was a fantastic host, like you said. And, you know, seeing these things and like, you know, you're you're looking back at the memories that you made, you know, when you did them. And, you know, it's easy to over-romanticize stuff like that. You know, like some people could say, oh, it's just a game. But you know, when when you're raiding, for example, and you're raiding with the same group of people and you're fighting to finish a raid, let me tell you something. It it means something when you finish it. It really does. It means something outside of just the fact that you beat the game, especially because most wow raids tend to have a good level of challenge for you know whichever you know level you happen to be doing. So, you know, you you get to that point and you do this as a group, as a as a you know, as a team, and it really does mean something to you. When when our guild defeated the Lich King in Wrath of the Lich King, it was an incredible moment for us. We were going bananas on Ventrillo, that's another thing, it'll age me. You know, so uh, you know, yeah, so I mean just you know 25 years of memories that I've built from these games and to get to experience Eric Blizzard was really a great moment. I'm really happy and and grateful that we got to go.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

You know, we we toured uh the entire building. There were some sections that we couldn't go into, um, but uh you know, we got to see the Terial statue uh as well that was still hanging out there. Yeah. Uh but but you you know, we also went into like the library. We got a chance to check out the uh official like Blizzard Library. They have like all the stuff from all their games and all the books and you know, tabletop games, like b video games, like all of all of the stuff that's um you know related to blizzard things.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

It would be an incredible place to work.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

My goodness, what an experience that would be. Yeah. Why would you ever leave?

SPEAKER_03 14:19

And they had like a wellness area for the employees so that like they could do yoga and and uh there's all kinds of classes and like massages and stuff. Like it's just they I know um in the past they've had a rap for treating their employees poorly, but uh I feel like that is definitely not the case anymore. Um it's it really seems like they take care of their people. Uh and uh then we also got a chance to check out the what would you call it? Commissary, I guess. Like the lunchroom. I don't even know what you call it.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

Um yeah, I'm sure it was I'm sure there's one of I'm sure they had a lot more too. Yeah, a giant cafeteria with yeah, chefs making food and a built-in Starbucks with specialty blizzard drinks. It was really awesome.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Yeah, I'm trying I I should remember this. I feel like the drink was called the blizzard something. Like you need to look at it.

SPEAKER_04 15:22

Something like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Yeah, but I made a I made a joke to Jordan while we were there. It's like you guys should really do a promotion with uh dairy queen. Like it feels feels very maybe on the nose, but like they have a blizzard, yeah. Should should do something there.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Yeah, um, yeah. Well, it you know, we had a real dull weekend. I can't believe you don't remember.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Yeah, there was there was so much going on.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Nothing happened.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Yeah. It was delicious, though. Uh that's good. Anyway, so the tour was really cool. Um, and that was the the day before LizCon. And then we did give Jordan a copy of the art print. Uh, I had him sign one uh for me. And I actually with that print, I actually went and got it signed by um a bunch of the previous guests while we were there. Um that was really cool. Yeah, it was it was really quite an experience, and I highly suggest um if you're able to pull that off to definitely do that. So uh I think we should maybe move on to BlizzCon now. I will start by saying that we had pretty high expectations. There was there were a lot of things that were pointing towards maybe some more news for Diablo 2 Resurrected. Um, we didn't get that, but I don't want to, I'm not gonna dwell on that just yet. I mean, there there were some announcements that were pretty amazing. Um I'm really happy for the people that love World of Warcraft. Um Wow Forever looks amazing. And I even made a joke to Crude. Uh at some point, I was like, maybe we should just start covering World of Warcraft stuff. Yeah, obviously tongue in cheek, but uh it just it kind of felt felt like there there was a lot going for uh for World of Warcraft folks.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Well it's tongue in cheek for now.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

You know the moment we switched, that would be when all the D2R news would hit without fail.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yeah, yeah. I I don't I don't think that's really in the cards, but it you know, I I I was pretty down uh on Saturday. Um let I mean let's get into it. So um, of course, you know, they announced a bunch of stuff for future games. Uh StarCraft amazing looks amazing. Like that that intro video was so dark and gritty, and um I I like honestly, I was kind of surprised they went as dark as they did. Um it was it was pretty pretty wild. Um and yeah, everyone was cheering and uh you know it it was just it was a cool experience uh to be there for the unveiling of that. And I know they they did what like Warcraft 3. Uh they're bringing that back, they're doing stuff with uh Hearthstone. Um what else was there, crude?

SPEAKER_04 18:48

Uh Overwatch got got gets a new character.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

Yeah, Hearthstone had a bunch of new cards. Warcraft three reforged, they added a campaign for the Forsaken Kingdom, which ties into WoW Forever.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Oh, they also announced for WoW, uh was it the Last Titan? That was something that you were really talking about as a possibility beforehand.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

Yeah, I thought we might get the full trailer for Last Titan, but they just gave us a little bit of a teaser, so I'm guessing sometime next year uh they'll either do like a a cinematic release, or maybe they'll do it at Gamescom next year. Depends on when, you know, what what their timeline is, but uh yeah, they'll they'll announce that. They already announced it as a as a you know, they they announced these three expansions together in a bundle basically. So this one is the third of the trilogy called the World Soul Saga. Uh, you know, right now they're gearing up for what looks like the the final push for the Midnight uh expansion, which is happening right now, which you know that'll be out sometime. And uh and then yeah, so we're and so Last Titan will launch next year. And yeah, it was a pretty cool trailer. The you know, they kind of like give you a little bit of you don't really see what's going on, and then there's just this really, really giant construct thing, you know, just getting ready, and you're like, wow, that was I mean, really, really big, like like uh Godzilla big. So should be interesting.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Uh and then of course there was the Diab stuff. So I know people will there were some people that will probably disagree with me. Um and I mean I'll just say it, like I people really cheered for the Diablo Netflix series.

unknown 20:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

And then when they and then when they announced Diablo 5, it was pretty quiet. Like I remember looking around the room at that very moment. Uh because it was super unexpected. Uh it was and and like other people were just looking around the room too. Uh and it was relatively quiet. Like there, there I mean, it was raucous for this the Diablo series. And then when they said D5, like I think everyone was either in shock or something, I'm not sure, but you know, I I will say I'm hopeful because I like when they did the panel and they talked about the story, and uh they talked about the premise, like how things are set up, and then they talked about a little bit about itemization and the direction they would kind of want to go in. Uh it sounds promising. I'm not closing the door on it. I know that uh a lot of folks, especially the hardcore D2 players, kind of feel like fool me once, fool me twice, like fool me a third time. Uh, but uh I kind of feel like this might be different. I'm I'm hopeful still. Um but. It's still very early. It's not set to come out for like three years. Um, so we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

But I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to. Um, but we'll see. Hopefully, uh, we get more more information sooner rather than later. Uh, Kurt, did you did you have any thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_04 22:26

Oh, do I have thoughts? I'm gonna I'm gonna preface this by saying we as a community have the a possible opportunity to shape in some way what happens in D5. When the panel convened and they were talking on stage, Joe Shelley made a point to say that they want community feedback and they want to use it for the game. And I'm of two minds for that. I do believe in the Autour vision, and I believe that should be important. You know, when you think about Diablo 2 as a game, if the ideas behind Diablo 2 have been crushed, probably not. And there's a lot of and there's a lot of the friction and challenge in Diablo 2 that came from the minds of the developers that didn't necessarily go through focus groups or discussion panels and so on and so forth. Maybe they did internally, but not in the broader scope where you you know you kind of whittle everything down into a an algorithm that says, well, X percent say this and X percent say that. However, I do think that in terms of the overall themes, the overarching sense, there is value in seeing what the community likes and what they don't like, and trying to steer it more towards you know what what most people like. And I think one of the things you want to look at is where is the the core of your fans, what are they seeing and what are they doing? I don't I can't begin to know to speak for every ARPG fan out there. Obviously, I'm a bit older, so I have a bit of a bit of a different view in that regard. What I what I think right now is is for the people who are listening, for the people on our Discord, for the people in our uh on our Reddits, for the people that are on the the official Diablo forums, that visit a site, that watch a video, that watch a streamer. Tell Blizzard now. Don't wait. Don't wait until 2028 when they've announced the start date and you decide, oh, I don't like the direction they're going, because by then that ship has sailed and it's too late. Get in there now and express your thoughts and opinions on what you think. Here's what I think. I think the end game should be meaningful. I think that you should make a game that for me means more to me than a temporary seasonal fill before I move on to something else. That was the model for D4, and it is not sustainable. Diablo 2, for whatever else it may have that people can criticize, or whatever else, when you sit down and play Diablo 2, you know you're making an investment into something that has meaning and depth. And that's an important thing for games, and I'd like to see more of it. When you play World of Warcraft, especially the classic games and so on and so forth, there is that same feeling. Anyone who's played WoW Vanilla uh knows exactly what I'm talking about, who hears this. That leveling experience for the original WoW game was one of the most incredible gaming things I've ever experienced. It was phenomenal. And and you reson and your character, you resonate with your character, and and those experiences become your experiences, and you they stay with you forever. Yeah. And and Diablo 2 is a lot the same way. And what's amazing about Diablo 2 is is that I'm probably right now on my at least 100th, at least, if not more, character that I'm leveling through the game, and I'm still getting that same level of immersion, that same level of uh of desire to see it through. And it's not, you know, like like a fantasy for me where I think I'm an Amazon or a barbarian. Um, it's not that. It's it's the there is a a value in what I'm doing. And Diablo 3 and Diablo 4, which are good games, I've played them, I enjoy them. I I'm not criticizing them. They don't provide the same experience. And I would like to see Diablo 5 bring us that Diablo 2 experience. It doesn't have to have the same functions, it doesn't have to be as grindy. It just has to give it has to give I I think it has to give us that sense of my character means something, it's important to me to see this through, it's important for me to continue. And I think if they nail that, then everything else will fall into line.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Sustance. I think that's the word you're looking for. It needs to have that sustenance to it, yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

And I think one of the things that is common between D2 and World of Warcraft, for example, is it they are grindy. Uh not everything comes to you immediately. Like you don't have loot showers. You you know, you might have to run a dungeon in World of Warcraft 20 times before you get the piece that you need. Or never yeah, yeah, depending on the rarity. Um, but then also um a big difference between um you know I would say wow classic and and retail um is the like the level scale um or monster scale. Uh they they did monster scaling in d4 as well. It just doesn't it doesn't have like it feels like more of a steady climb versus uh like a stair step, you know, you're having jumps in power, um, and you're able to go back to another zone. And you know, when you were at one point getting getting destroyed, like you go back and now you feel powerful. You know, those those are the kinds of things that I think um set the older games apart from from the newer games. Um you know I'm not saying that they couldn't do level scaling and or monster scaling and make it feel good, but it to me it just the way it's been done before uh just does not feel right. Uh and and it's just kind of uh you're just kind of doing it. It there's there's no there's no aha moments really. Um I don't know how how best to describe it, but I I just think that's one aspect that uh that really needs to be considered. So aside from from D5, um, I guess the other thing to point out is we got absolutely zero uh D2R news from the opening ceremony. There there was no D2R news in any kind of panels. Um but uh Matt Cedarquist uh did a couple uh interviews with Lama and and uh and Lucky and uh uh answered questions on their stream. Um and that's the only place that we got anything about D2R. I was expecting more. Uh I think a lot of folks were. Um crude had pointed out that uh maybe we did that to ourselves, but despite that, I still think there's more going on than what what they're uh letting on.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

Which at the moment is nothing.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Well, you know, they're talking about buffing some uniques and and making changes to to some items and things. But I but I honestly still believe that there's more going on than than what they're sharing.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

I agree. And I think I think we're going to see things. I just don't know this I don't know if it's gonna come in the way that maybe some of us hoped or expected.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Um I wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised if they still if they do another shadow drop at some point.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Yeah, but but I I I think also uh we we talked about this in previous episodes where uh imagine a a scenario where when we got a ladder season, if if each ladder season had some type of theme and so on and so forth, then you, I think it was you, Brake, who had said, you know, you didn't want it to become something more like D3 or D4. But I think in in the D2 uh version of that, you know, ladder experience, I think we might see something like, okay, this is a ladder where X items get upgraded, or this is a ladder where we're we're balancing class X or we're making some rune word changes. And I feel like that's the kind of thing that I think we we might uh we might be right about being optimistic about seeing.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

I think I'm just gonna have more tempered expectations moving forward.

SPEAKER_04 31:30

That's fair.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

I will say though that I talked to some folks uh that weren't on the D2 team. I had said, well, you know, I was really looking forward to hopefully some more news about D2R and uh they were they seemed shocked. Like maybe they just were like shocked because they announced D5 and they expected me to be talking about that. Um but I feel more like uh they were shocked because perhaps and I'm just going out on a limb here, perhaps they there was something that they um had initially planned on sharing for D2 and it got cut or just wasn't ready. I say that because um from a business standpoint. And let's be honest, BlizzCon is as much for they're a publicly traded company. That BlizzCon is as much for investors as it is for uh the fans and the attendees of the event. And if they had announced D5 and then talked about stuff for D2R, and there was maybe this is just in my head, but imagine what would have happened like from an optic standpoint if they talked about stuff for D2R and there was more cheering for that. That would have been a bad look. And so I again I'm not saying this is the case. I I just you know, intuition-wise, I feel like they either like cut whatever it was that they were wanted to talk about, or uh they just were not ready. Um they wanted to to talk about something and it wasn't ready yet. The other thing I will say is I knew it wasn't looking good for us when there was nothing in the opening ceremony, and then the first thing that Crew and I did is we walked over to like all the way to the other side of the convention halls. There they had a D1, D2, D3 demo set up, and there was like we walked over there to see what it was, and it was just like 10 computers.

SPEAKER_04 34:12

Maybe 20, but it was not a lot.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Yeah, I mean, let's see, it was like five by like six by five, so maybe sixteen, something like that. And it was just there was like nothing else. There was no fanfare, there it was just like uh some computers set up that people could play those games. Um, and at that point I knew we were for sure not getting any news. And then of course, there was uh we were unsure of what the Diablo panel was gonna be, uh and that that panel immediately changed to the Diablo 5 panel, and that that pretty much summed up uh uh our expectations for getting anything substantial um for the game out of BlizzCon. Now, I still think you know you should definitely go listen to um Llamas discussion with uh with uh Cedarquist and and Lucky's as well. One thing that I think is worth mentioning that was that was mentioned in Lucky's stream was that there are yet undiscovered uh Easter eggs uh in the game that that the devs for D2R put in. Um I don't think anyone has any clue except for the devs themselves, um which is pretty wild um that it hasn't been discovered yet, considering it's we're what five years in.

SPEAKER_04 35:48

And I'm curious, is that an Easter egg where it's oh it's just like cool little thing that you see, or is it like an event? You know, like I feel like if it was an event, we we we would have gotten some that they would have leaked it somehow to get some people going because why invest time to do something like that and then have nobody see it? I think it's more along the lines probably of the other one. I'll I'll share a little uh a little tidbit with people if they don't know. Uh in the River of Flame, I mentioned this to a few people, and from the river of flame, when you uh take the waypoint and you start walking towards the Chaos Sanctuary, you walk through uh basically two rows of statues. And if you watch real closely, those statues will follow the way you're walking. They turn their heads and look at you both ways. So if you if you go one way, they they all turn their heads that way, and then you know, so they're always looking at you until you pass through them.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Yeah. And and like I I kind of feel like whatever Easter eggs they're talking about are probably more substantial than maybe than just like visual.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Yeah, like the the only one that we know of that was more recently discovered, you know, when D2R came out was the the souls rituals. So there's two the two souls rituals for like the magic find. That was like a major Easter egg, but yeah, it was in the original. Yeah, it was, but again, it's like we did like just found it out when D2R came out. So if it's something on like that sort of level, then that's pretty cool that if it's in there, but nobody it doesn't seem like anybody has found anything.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I would like to point out my favorite book series came out in '94. Um, he passed now six years ago, and his right-hand man is the only person that knows there's like multiple Easter eggs still in the stories that nobody has actually figured out. And then Futurama had a game. It wasn't a game, it was a book series. So that series has been out for 32 years, and there are things that we still haven't, and like I've done multiple rereads through it, and nothing stuck out to me. And there's you know, millions of people that read his books, and then even video games-wise, uh, Futurama, there's a game, I think it's been out for like 16 years, and one of the Easter eggs was just found out like a couple months ago, so it could be a significant amount of time before anyone actually finds them.

SPEAKER_04 38:16

If we could get the folks from the WoW secret finding community on it, let me tell you, they would find it. I if you guys ever want to go down a rabbit hole of pure insanity, go to the WoW Secret Finding Discord. You have to like look for it and get the invite, and then be on there and just go through some of their older files. Some of the stuff that these people figured out, first of all, it's insane on a level that you can't imagine that developers would put it in, but then that people actually work together as a community to find them is just incredible. And the work they've done, like I I I've followed a few of them, and I thought to myself, oh, I would love to find one of these my own day. Yeah, right. I I would lose my mind, I swear. I'd be gibbering in the corner. It's it's incredible the stuff that they've come up with. So we need we need them on the case to find out what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

Yeah, and I will say though, also that the only reason we know about the souls Easter egg is because at some point the D2 code was accessible, and you can go through and you can like look at the code, like, and you can see that there is a ritual there, and like it's kind of like broken up in a couple different files and things, but but like we only know about it because the code was accessible, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

I mean, and and peep people have uh like data mined like other stuff in the most recent patch of D2R, like the the charm formulas that leaked, and people were like, Yeah, this is in the code, but it's not active. So there's definitely stuff in there that people can find based on the code, but nobody has come out or come forward and say, like, yeah, here's another Easter egg.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

As far as that stuff is concerned, I think that stuff is kind of stored in in actual like text files that they extract, but it's not actual game code mechanics. And I think that's that's probably an important distinction because it's actually like in the executable file, not not in like the the data files. But anyway, uh it'll be really interesting and I'm super curious to know what what that stuff is, if anyone will ever find it. I guess the only other thing that I want to make sure that I uh touch on, um, and uh you know this is gonna be a meandering conversation, but uh I do want to say thank you to several folks. Uh Mr. Lama, Lucky, Luciano, Gymnasium, Mac, Macrobioboy, um Misha, also known as Hello Misha. Um I also met uh Mr. Hollywood and and then also uh uh Xanth and Nineball from from Pure Diablo. Uh they were they were so nice. It was really awesome to talk to them. It was really a great experience to be able to connect with those folks. We have this podcast and you know we talk to a lot of different folks. Uh it's just you know, it's another thing to to meet in person and to be able to hang out. Cool. Um, and I will say that uh one of the really nice things that that I thought uh happened was several folks thanked us for what we're doing for the community um and and trying to stay positive. And uh, you know, that really means a lot. And in fact, uh one of the other things was when we we went through a line um to get dev signatures, they had like the ability for you to talk you know, go through. You had to wait in line for a while, but you go through and you could talk to each of the devs that they had available at the time. And they were you know cycling people out. I assume that they had different things that they had to attend while they were there too. Uh but uh one of the devs that I talked to um was aware of our podcast, and uh that was that was pretty cool. Yeah, I'm not I'm not saying that they listened, but they're at least they're aware, and that was that was pretty cool too.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

Yeah, and I'd like to share uh to sound in on that as well. So the the signing experience, I if if people haven't been to BlizzCon, uh I was at a signing experience for Diablo 4, and I have a poster, a Diablo a Lilith Lilith poster with a bunch of signatures, and it was very nice, they were very friendly, but it was quick, like in and out. This was amazing to me because each every single developer, they asked me my name, what I thought of the games, what I thought of BlizzCon, and when I came up with a question or an idea, they had real conversations. They could not have been more gracious with their time. We're in the middle of this giant convention, everything is going on, and they're chatting with us like we're in a room and you know, just talking gaming. You know, like like one of the devs that we spoke to is uh does a lot of work for managing the D4 economy, and it's his responsibility, or you know, maybe not his alone, but one of the things he works on is managing the level of materials that drop to make sure that they're dropping in such a way that it it's a grind for the hardcore folks who you know are going to get the maximum value out of those things, uh, but also that it doesn't trivialize the experience for casuals, but that they're they're also. There, and I peppered him with some questions about it. And for our D4 folks, I can tell you a little bit of a mini insider thing here. The dungeon Sears Reach in Diablo 4, which is a place that is repeatedly run by players all the time because the boss in there drops gems on a regular basis, so it's a good farming area. That dungeon is done by design, and it is done to imitate in a way to approximate in Diablo 4 what we do with the Countess in Diablo 2. So it's meant for you to farm specifically for those gems. And you can of course get them in other places as well. Same thing with runes in Diablo 2. But I thought that was a great little insight, you know, that I never really thought of. I didn't think of D4 in those terms where they had, you know, things like that. And just a fantastic experience to get to meet them. And one thing I really want our listeners to know is really important to me that everybody knows the devs speak of Diablo 2 like it is the holy grail. When you talk to them about Diablo 2 and you mention it, their eyes shine. They speak of it with reverence and love. One of the devs told me that the main inspiration that is driving the production and design of Diablo 5 is Diablo 2. Now, we can get into that, you know, on a on a deeper level, but it was really cool to hear a dev say that. They didn't have to. They didn't have to offer that up. It was just said. And was it said because I said I was a D2 fan? Maybe. But it still felt nice to hear.

SPEAKER_03 45:44

Yeah, I mean, I think, if anything, over the last two iterations of Diablo, that uh it's become abundantly clear that there is special sauce uh in D2 that just has yet to be recreated in a meaningful way. I'm not just saying that because I love the game, and I'm not just saying that because we have a podcast about it. Um I just think that you know it's it's easy to give fans lip service. It's another thing to deliver on it. And uh it seems to me that they may take it a little bit more seriously this time. We're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by our D2R Discord and subreddit. Come join our community of over a hundred thousand combined members, ask questions, interact with other players, get real-time updates on Diablo clone and terror zones, join voice channels and kill hordes together, enter our giveaways, or just hang out and chat. If you love D2R as much as we do, be sure to check it out. Links in the description. Alright, and we are back. So, uh, I just wanted to touch on this briefly. I don't have any details about this, but while at BlizzCon, I heard it mentioned uh a couple different times. Uh and I don't have exact numbers, but uh it was mentioned that the D2R team was recently expanded. Um I like separate from the hiring that they did last year uh that we were aware of that kind of led into the ramp-up of Reign of the Warlock. I don't have any more information beyond that, but I just I found it interesting that it was mentioned more than once by different people. Uh and I don't know what it means, but I have to imagine that it it means good things for for D2R. The other thing I wanted to touch on real quick before we dig into uh some more Diablo stuff is on Thursday when I flew in to California, I was I got to my hotel and I was exhausted and I was hungry, I hadn't eaten all day. Uh I was traveling. And uh so I went across a street to Outback Steakhouse, had a delicious meal. Uh and uh as I was kind of wrapping up my meal, a guy walked in, uh sat at the bar, and uh he mentioned something about BlizzCon to the bartender, and I was like, Oh, you're here for BlizzCon. He's like, Yeah. Um, so we we talked for a while. He's a really avid uh World of Warcraft player, really cool dude. Um so Alex, if you're listening, shout out to Alex. Um really appreciated the conversation and and uh I will say Alex traveled from Saskatchewan, Canada um to meet up with friends at Blizzard. Uh it was his birthday, it was actually his birthday uh that day. So uh I bought him a shot at Tequila um and uh you know we just hung out and chat chatted for uh I don't know, maybe an hour, something like that. It was just really cool. I really appreciated that. So um again, happy birthday, Alex, and uh really appreciated the conversation. I wanted to kind of touch on why like the sudden shift. Why did Blizzard decide to announce D5 when initially their long-term strategy, at least the way they had laid it out initially, was that they would have a bunch of expansions on D5. Um and it it it's odd, a lot of people have pointed this out, that it's the only Diablo game that never got to Diablo. Now they did recently with the most recent season, they put in um Diablo and Bale. They just added Mephisto, that was the last expansion. And then they also added uh the ghost of Deckard Kane and some other stuff. I it to me it kind of struck it struck me as weird uh in a way that they are catering so heavily to the D2 crowd. Um I mean, I guess it's not that weird because D2 players are super dedicated. And uh it kind of just felt like a last-itch effort to try and get folks to to buy d4. Um, I could be wrong. Um, but but then also the announcement of the Amazon. So they you know smallps we were talking on the break, you know, they added paladin, or excuse me, they added paladin, they're going to add Amazon, but like beyond that DLC for the for that class, essentially announced that they're not gonna do any more expansions. Uh they'll still continue to have seasons, but that's like it for D4. Uh and that's like wild considering the game's been out what four years?

SPEAKER_02 51:50

Seems like last I think it's three years.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Three years, yeah. And it's like like really weird. Like I I just I think a lot of folks are really confused by the change in direction. So I thought maybe we could talk a little bit more about why the shift from D4.

SPEAKER_04 52:13

Well, if you look at the D4, excuse me, the D5 uh developer panel, one of the things they mentioned was they started putting the story together of Diablo coming back to Sanctuary. They started talking about it, they started working it out, and as the story progressed, there was a point where it may have been uh actually uh initially been working on been worked on as an expansion for d4. So, and that kind of follows where you think it would go. Uh, if you if you want to exclude Bale for a second in the sense of you know Mephisto and and Diablo, well Diablo, of course, without goes without saying, but that Mephisto might be more iconic to the series than Bale, you know, it it it would it would make sense to a lot of people that the next expansion would be Diablo. And at some point in the working of that storyline and what what they were developing, they felt that it would be better suited to be a full expansion because Diablo deserved his full story, not just an expansion, but a full game where Diablo is the centerpiece. And in this Diablo 5, uh Diablo is not going to be just uh the voice that comes out when you you know when you go to kill him. He's gonna be present during the entire game, and your level of interaction with him is probably closer to what we've experienced in D4 with Mephisto. I know you guys didn't play it as much. In D4 in the in The Lord of Hatred, you you encounter Mephisto quite often. You you deal with him on a face-to-face level, uh you know, and you you you you interact with him, your character, your character's experiences and your character's journey are influenced by him directly. So he's not it, he's not just there's an end-boss, and you do all this other stuff, and here's Mephisto. He's interacting with you all the time, and he's shaping the world. So I I think they took that vision of how they approached Mephisto for D4 and applied it to Diablo, and I think, you know, out of that, out of those steps, they came, there came to be Diablo 5. But I think we need to be realistic as well. You know, it doesn't feel like D4 lived up to the lofty expectations they had. You know, we we've talked a lot about this in the past as well, about how uh, you know, I personally feel like it's okay to expect greatness even if it doesn't come and then expect it again. And I think as a developer, I think it's okay to have a grand plan even if it doesn't wind up working. Uh, I had this conversation with someone. We talked about Diablo timing their seasons based on other games' releases, and their point was that Blizzard should look at when other games are coming out to cater to the player who can get the maximum enjoyment out of those games. And my argument was absolutely not. When you when you are the big dog or you think you're the big dog, you make the schedule and let other people follow it around you. So I think, you know, I I think when when they when they set up D4, I don't think they set up D4 to say, hey, we're gonna fit like a little Tetris puzzle, we're gonna fit in here and we're gonna slot in there. I I think their intention was we are gonna dominate, we are gonna be Diablo is gonna be the face of the ARPG genre. If it fell short of that, if it didn't meet those expectations, I can see them feeling like, okay, let's let's take a fork in the road and go somewhere else. And you know, without publicly saying yeah, you know, D4 is a failure, I I don't and I don't and I I will not say that it is.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

I think financially I think it did very well. But yes, but as far as like longevity, they've probably peaked on um on the number of of uh players that are going to buy the game.

SPEAKER_04 56:25

I I would think that's a reasonable assumption. And Lord of Hatred was a really good campaign, it was fun, it was it was engaged, the cutscenes were great, uh, a lot of high emotional moments for D2R for Diablo franchise players, and uh, you know, and it really delivered on those on those things. You know, uh, but but yeah, like I you know, I I I do feel like the the overall uh expectation, the overall plan, it it probably just fell short of where they were looking at. And I feel like the yeah, you know, the Diablo franchise, I think they felt the best way to move forward is to get another expansion, and they could do so much worse than drawing all their inspiration from this great game we call Diablo 2.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Yeah, I I will say that I think there's two things, right? There's the official narrative as to why they decided to go in a different direction as far as uh the story and to give Diablo's own game. But I think there's also the business decision. And and to me, the change feels like the change in direction feels like a business decision, not really tied to the narrative of uh, you know, we wanted to tell a better Diablo story. And and that's fair, like they should spin it however they want to try to do that. Um but but really to me it feels more like a business decision, and that's okay too. They're they're going to write the narrative however they'd like.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Uh D4, again, when it when it first launched, it was like one of the heaviliest marketed games, and they crushed it, right? They they sold so many copies, and everybody was super excited about it, and then it just kind of like didn't meet those sort of huge expectations. It was, you know, a lot of people felt like it was half baked when it came out. Um, but they have done a lot of changes, and from the people that play it, they say that it it is a solid um game now, which is fine, but I'm sure that they see in their numbers that they're not getting those people to like sort of jump back, right? So I'm sure they they sold a lot, but their active player base is just not um going up. So the idea of just continuing to do yearly or periodic expansions on D4 didn't seem like it was gonna cut it or sustain. So they kind of flipped the script and was like, we're gonna make a D5 and hopefully capture some people from the other franchises to come over and kind of do that same thing. And it's an opportunity to kind of start fresh and you know, get rid of the sort of negative feelings that people have had with d4 and and sort of try again.

SPEAKER_03 59:24

Yeah, the only thing I'm concerned with is even if they let's say that they nail D5, let's say a lot of D2 players buy it and play it and love it and stuff. I I guess I'm just concerned that there might be and it's three years out still, but like is their Diablo fatigue after after D3, D4, will they be able to make a game good enough that it captures all the people that have been sitting on the sideline? I hope they do. I'm not cheering for it to fail. I I want it to succeed, I want to be able to play Diablo 5 that that is something new and exciting. I don't know. We'll also have to see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

Yeah, and I I think that they have to kind of you know find find their audience for it, right? Again, like I mentioned on other people's um videos, but like Diablo 2 players really just want more Diablo 2 stuff, and there is a comfort in just logging on to Diablo 2, like we've said, we all just come back to it and it's a comfortable feeling, and you can just jump in and do stuff. But when you think about these new games, like for me, what's kind of intimidating is like I haven't played Diablo 4 in years, so it's like for me to like jump back into another expansion, it's like, ah, do I want to relearn all this stuff, right? So, same with another Diablo 5. It's like they are bringing in a lot of stuff that is similar to D2 to try and get those people to be like interested in it, but is it enough? And it and like, do I want to go through that effort of like learning new stuff for a new game? Again, like we're all getting kind of older, but maybe Blizzard is try trying to target a new fresh audience, which is totally fine because again, they need to get more people to play their games and enjoy their games. Like, like, yeah, we probably started quote unquote started on D2, some people started on D1 and love it so much, but some people's first Diablo game could have been four or could have been or it might be five, right? So they do have a chance to like strike it again, you know, if they could continue to try. So here's their here's their opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

And and I do I don't want to be unfair to the folks that have worked on d4. I'm sure there are a lot of people that have worked on multiple Diablo games. I'm sure there are people that have joined Blizzard and only worked on D4. Uh I I guess I I don't want to sit here and just beat up on D4 and and say, you know, that that the work and effort and love and everything that they put into making D4, you know, ended up resulting in in uh you know a game that a lot of people don't want to play.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

I would just say there's there's definitely people that really like Diablo, which I think is fine. Like they do have a big audience. It could be bigger than D2. We don't know, but yeah. It's just not for us or for me. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

Yeah, and and I guess I just want to want to be clear that that maybe the game stands on its own. Want to encourage people. If any if anyone that works at Blizzard listens to this, I kind of feel like maybe we're beaten up on things a lot, but uh it's it's truly just out of love for the for the uh for the games. So any other thoughts on D4 before we move on?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

I want to add um with what you said there. Like it seems like a lot of times we are dogging on it, and that's just because we are such big fans of Diablo 2. It's not a bad game. It's just it's really not for us. There was a lot of work in put into it, there's a lot of love poured into that from their development team, and that's definitely apparent. It's a bummer, I think, for them. All that work they put in, you know, didn't have the staying power that they hoped that it did. So like my heart goes out to them for that, uh, for sure. And just want to say again, it's not it doesn't make it a bad game. The people who enjoy that game aren't wrong for enjoying it, it's just it's not our game.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:40

And then uh Smalls, you had said that you were curious about um what the streamer setup at BlizzCon was like.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

Uh yeah, so um, yeah, like I saw like the maps and stuff of where things were, but I was just curious, like, were all the D2 streamers or D4 streamers together? Were they all in their own sort of setup? You know, I obviously they didn't bring their their personal setups. I saw that they were on like, you know, rented or borrowed setups or sponsored setups. Um, so just curious where that was and what that felt like and you know what that was.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Yeah, so they they had like an elevated platform that had monitors on the outside so people could see like what they were seeing, what they were actually streaming on it. And then on the platform itself, they had like two rows kind of like back to back. Uh I guess maybe one row, but it was like computers on one side and then computers on the other side, but they were kind of like back to back. I don't know. There was probably what uh 12 stations. Um, and they they were all set up uh in a way so that uh any streamer could just go up there and sit at one of the at one of the computers and stream from there. So it was like it was, I don't know if it was leased or you know, whatever the the case was, but um yeah, nobody brought I don't think anyone brought their own setups. Um if they did, then they did it from some other room. But it was all set up right next to the um the big tournament area as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

Yeah, it looked to me like everything there was all sponsored, all the all the gear, the chairs, everything. Yeah, everything was sponsored. And a lot of the setups had uh dual chairs, so the streamer could have a dev or somebody next to them, and they could get on the stream and chat, just like with uh with Mr. Llama and Matt Cedarquist.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

They didn't have a good mic setup though, because it was just one mic on the on the headset. You know, they had to like pass it off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:46

Yeah, they did need a they didn't need a second mic for the guest. That would have been a that's a good thing for the next BlizzCon to remember, is the second mic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:54

Yeah, and and I will say, um, despite how disappointing. I was on day one simply because of the lack of D2 news. It was a good experience. Um I really enjoyed it. Like, yes, waiting in line sucks. I didn't end up buying anything at the merch store, but but I think it's worth at least going once. I don't know if I'll go again, it just depends on you know what the future looks like. But but certainly I recommend if if it's something that you're able to go to, uh, even if you just go once to experience it, it is it is cool. Definitely a bucket list item.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:36

Yeah, and I I I do want to add for people who've never been, and if you have a chance to go to go, and this is something that's really, really uh important to me. When you meet people in real life at a coffee shop, at a fast food restaurant, at work, um, you know, the cousin who comes over and you talk about video games and you talk about what you're passionate about.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

And their eyes glaze over.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:00

Well, they they might glaze over, but also sometimes you'll get this response. Oh, yeah, I used to play the World of Warcraft game. Um, I remember it was uh, oh, was it it was the Frozen King. Yeah, I I played back then and that was really good. They remember it casually because they played it as one of many games that they played, uh, you know, and it was just in and out for them, and that was their experience. And for a lot of people, a lot of gamers, the real ultra casuals who never visit a website, who will never listen to this podcast, sadly, because we'll look what they're missing out. You know, those people will have that kind of so-so response. Like you told them that, you know, you pet that you you pet a nice golden retriever earlier. It's just a another story. When you go to BlizzCon, the 30, 40,000, 50,000, 80,000, whatever number of people it was, they're all like you. They are passionate, they know everything, they know the NPCs that stick in your mind and you use as anecdotes on your on your messages, they know the ins and outs of the D2, the D3, the D4, the StarCraft. They know it all. When you go to BlizzCon, you know where you're going, guys? You're going home. That's what BlizzCon is to me. When I go there, it's home. It's a place where my passion is matched by the people there. And it's just a great, amazing experience. Uh, you know, I'm passionate about a lot of things, but it's different than like, say, my sports passions, because a lot of sports fans are, sorry, dumb. I don't know how to say it, you know, but people who are passionate about gaming, they're they're passionate in the way that I am. And it's such a great, awesome feeling. It's just home. That's the best way to say it. And yeah, if you ever if you if you think about BlizzCon, it's it's a financial sink, you know, it's gonna cost you some money, but if you have the ability to do it and you can plan it, by all means try to do it. It's a great, great experience, and it'll stay with you forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:12

When was the last one? Because I know that they took a little break, so this felt like a little bit more 23. 23. Like, do they I mean, are is it gonna be an annual thing or is it gonna be like random? We don't I don't know. Yeah. I mean, that's why it was like 23 to this. It's like this was kind of like the big deal.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:31

Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of people. I asked around to see if anyone had an idea, an inkling as to what the actual count was. And someone told me pretty confidently that it was 40,000 people. Um, so I it might have been more than that.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:49

I I I'd make that a conservative estimate, honestly. I I think it'd be more than that. But I I at least, yeah. I'd I would be shocked to find out it was less.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:59

And yeah, I I guess I just want to close the BlizzCon conversation just saying we we don't know when the next one's gonna be. They've never they haven't said oh we're gonna do one next year or anything. I I suspect that uh it'll probably be in every two or three year thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

Um definitely worth the experience. One last thing I wanted to touch on is when they did the D5 panel, there were a lot of similarities between D5 and D2. And they even said that they're drawing a lot of inspiration from D2. Even as far as um going back to something like procedurally generated worlds or maps, which they kind of which they from what I understand completely strayed from um in D4.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:52

Yeah, D4 is static overworld with random dungeon tile maps, but they're but the dungeons are they're kind of like they're it's the same style, the same theme, but you know, you might have like a different branching here or there, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:07

Yeah. Um, and then there were other similarities. Small so you were kind of uh talking about some of that stuff. Do you want to yeah?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

So the the screenshot that they showed about uh or the with the uh characters screen, like that's kind of like the only thing that we we saw. Um the setup of the character looked very Diablo 2, where it looked like you were like putting the stuff on the character and not just having the the the items like in a nice even row um like they do in in Diablo 4. They also got rid of the the pants, so it's very similar to what Diablo 2 has. And then we saw Diablo 2 runes, like literally the um rune was in there and other runes, so it's like they're going sort of towards those roots of trying to capture those D2 folks, and and all of the like the the mods for the the runes were the exact mods that are in Diablo 2. So it's literally a rip, and the the screenshot was was looking just like D2. So I think that they were again showcasing that to be like, look, we're gonna make it more like D2 kind of a thing, try to get those those folks to be interested in a new Diablo 5.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:20

Uh and even like the magic and rare items um that kind of hearken back to the amazing itemization that's in D2 that uh I think we kind of didn't see in D3 and D4. Uh and then also uh you know, we already touched on it, but like they kind of said the same thing with D3 and D4, like oh we're you know, we're you know drawing inspiration from D2. Again, I I don't and I think you you will agree with me on this. I think everyone will. We don't want a recreation of D2, but there are elements in D2 that I think uh would carry over well to a new game that would uh make the the playability and the replayability uh and add more depth to a new game. Um because Smoles, you even said if if they just like make uh D5 like D2, then I'll just play D2. Yeah so there needs to be new ideas and stuff, but the also like uh having uh having the core uh mechanics, um how you know you there's there's no personal loot, uh you have trading, uh the itemization, the fact that a pair of uh yellow rare boots can be the best item in the game, or at least for that's you know, for that slot. All that kind of stuff that just that m makes it more interesting. Can they do that in D5 without making it an exact replica of D2? We have yet to see.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:17

And and I think I again I think they're they're heavily drawing inspiration from from D2 and and and studying D2, and like why why are these people 26 plus years later still playing D2, right? And so they're looking at those things and they're like trying to pinpoint what are the things that give a game like D2 such longevity. And one of the big things was the itemization, and another thing that people commented on was that in the inventory you have that sort of taking up different space, like the inventory Tetris, but it's like that's those are the kind of things that people liked or missed um with Diablo 4, where every item looked the same and took up the same inventory slot, like these little details all add up, like not you can't just take one thing from Diablo 2 and stick it in Diablo 4 and be like, boom, here we go, we're we're done, we're good. It's all the things that add up to the overall picture, right? So there's systems in D2 that are not perfect, but the systems that they do have all sort of blend together and complement each other to make this one thing that we all continue to play. And that that's what I think they're trying to look at and study and bring to this new version for Diablo 5.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:36

I really do like the concept for the story. I I will say that you know D1, D2, D3, D4, it's all kind of the same character in in a general way. And sometimes you in order to shake things up, uh, you have to look at things differently. And I do think it's a different perspective. I I kind of dig the general idea of where they're headed uh story-wise, seems pretty appealing.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:13

There was an interesting thing that they sort of mentioned there, and that was like they want you to like sort of get to know the NPCs a little bit more because like the NPCs in Diablo 2 are like so iconic, but I'm not sure if they're iconic because of the story that happens with it, or because we've been playing it so long and we're like, we know Kane ID stuff, we know Akara, like because of playing so long, but I know that that was a um criticism of D4 was that you go to these different towns. I mean, I played D4 for a little bit, I have no idea what any of the NPC's names are or what they do. I just went through it, and so they were like, Well, we kind of want more story with it, and that's why they're bringing back Deckard Kane. Like a lot of people were upset that they killed him off, right? In D3, correct me if I'm wrong. Um, so they're like bringing him back. It's like a major source of contention, okay? Like, yeah, like let's just bring him back. It's like, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:09

One thing about Deckard is interesting. So in Diablo 2, he's old. Yeah, they don't say how old, but he's old. You you can make it, you can make an argument that is he an internal? Like well, well, well, well, let's look at it in two ways. So, one, you have a situation where the humans of Sanctuary may, unless they're killed by a demon, obviously, uh, they may have longer life lifespans than say, you know, humans of today. Let's we we can give him that. Okay. And we can give that somebody who works, you know, who's part of the Herodrum has, you know, some type of whatever longevity. But let's just say at a at a conservative estimate, let's say that he's 60 during the events of D2. He's older guy, white hair. It's a reasonable assumption. D3 takes place some 80 years, I want to say. Maybe not that long. It's it's a long while after D2, 40 years or something like that. So Deckard's gotta be pushing close to 100, I would say, roughly. I'd have to go back and check the notes to see what the time frame is. But to give you an idea, the barbarian in D3 is the barbarian from D2, uh, can can can canonically. And he's the only carryover character until they, you know, until they add it in the necromancer, but the necromancer is not the same necromancer from D2. Matter of fact, in D3, you meet the quote unquote D3 necromancer. He's a he has a given he has a given name, and you meet him and interact with him. So, um, so the Barbarian is late 50s, early 60s, I would say. So probably we're looking at about a 40-year span, I would say, between the two games. So Deckard's around 100 or so. So I don't know how much longer he was gonna live anyway. I don't think maybe they gave him the most noble death. You know, um, you know, Magda was a witch. It's funny, they always talk about the butterfly thing, but that was just a form she took. She wasn't actually a butterfly, she was a very powerful witch that that killed Kane. The the funny part is that people talk about the fact that, you know, she took down Kane and then we kill her 10 seconds later or something. It's like, well, Kane's a hundred-year-old man with, you know, not many skills besides being a really good scholar, and you in D3 are a very, very powerful being. Uh, for people who don't know the concept, the Worldstone, part of the Worldstone's job was to keep the powers of the Nephilim, which is the which is humanity on sanctuary, in check. Because the powers of the Nephilim would have would have made them stronger than angels or demons, because that hybrid created something powerful. The world stone was made to keep that in check, and over the centuries, people were just human. When Tyriel destroyed the World Stone, all that power started rushing back. So the your D3 character in in power level comparison to your D2 character is literally a god. He can easily wipe the floor with demons and gods if he chose. You know, so just a little, you know, like backstory there kind of thing. So I I I don't know, but I I do agree it would have been nicer to have a uh a more dignified send-off for for our buddy Deckard.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:12

Yeah. What's the what I mean, did they go into the story of like how he comes back? Because he's back, right? In Diablo 5?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:20

I I I think he's just a ghost. I think it's just a ghost of Deckard. That's yeah, I don't I don't think they actually like revived him or anything, yeah. So I don't know if you guys caught this in the D5 panel. So one of the things they talked about was, and it kind of like it's kind of a counterpoint to the comparison to D2, is that they said they are taking cues that may that's my the way I I saw it, that they're taking cues from D4 feedback and design. Does that mean that they're gonna take the things that we don't like from there and edit? I don't know. Are they gonna take things that were popular? I would assume, you know, so I think that's one thing that I want to look at. It and it's funny, it's interesting the dichotomy because they're saying that they're they're taking cues from what they learned in Diablo 4 and how to apply it to Diablo 5, but at the same time, we're seeing uh on screen uh, you know, the visual is all D2. And as we touched on earlier, the you know, we definitely get the impression from the devs that there's a strong uh resonance to D2. So I am curious to see how that particular thing will play out. You know, uh I think it was Mac who was on the show once and brought out an interesting point where he felt like D4 was in a no-win situation because uh D3 was supposed to satisfy people who played D2, and then D4 was supposed to satisfy people who played D1, D2, and D3 and could never do any. I'm sure there's a certain level of people who will look at D5 and go, Well, you need to wow my socks off, which is similar to what you said earlier, I think. Uh you know, uh you're gonna have your D3 fans and your D4 fans, or even your D1 and D and of course D2 fans. Where do you draw the the line of okay, we want to draw inspiration from this, we want to make these people happy, but at the same time, we also want to have a creative vision and do something new. And uh that's gotta be a pretty daunting challenge. Uh, you know, but like I said, like I said earlier, too, you know, you mentioned that you don't want to have like a recreation of D2, and I thought about that. I'm like, but I wonder if D3 was similar in structure to D2 and D4 was similar in structure, but you had different classes, different monsters, different settings, different stories, but the the core gameplay kind of stayed the same, wouldn't it still have been really successful? I don't know. I I I think if if if D3 had started that way, like if D3 had stayed closer to the D2 vision, and I think they tried. I really do. I think in the beginning they tried. I think if they had stayed and and it it you know and it evolved that way, I think maybe there's a window there where you could have seen D4 be more along those lines. But I think once D3 changed and we got the the loot pinata thing and all that stuff, I think that set a different course for where D4 was gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:01

Yeah, and and that's the thing is like uh many people have said this before, but it's like if you try and make a game that pleases everybody, you make a game that pleases no one. And it's like so I'm a D2 player, like that's my main, right? I tried D3, it wasn't for me, played it for a little bit, dropped it. I was hyped on D4, I got it, played, you know, 400 hours of it, and then I dropped it, and now I'm still playing D2. So, like, is their goal to come up with all these games and get you to completely jump to it? Like, do they want me to just stop playing D2 and play D5? Or do they want me to play D2, D3, D4, D5? Like, what's the goal there? It seems like that's what they're sort of expecting, is like they want you to play them all, but like you're not going to, you don't have time to play them all. So it's kind of like do they want me to dip D2R and drop it and play D5? And if that's the case, I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:00

And like D2 is so grindy that to really make um to make progress, like you have to spend the majority of your time. Yeah, you have to and like like we're all adults, right? We we have lives, we've got families, we've you know, we have jobs, like probably there are many demographics that make up the player base of D4, but certainly for the player base of D2, if we're gonna commit to playing D2 and making actual progress in the game, we're probably not gonna be playing other things for the most part, if we're if we're really into it. Um so there there is uh I think a struggle that you've point pointed out here that uh they're gonna have to contend with on D5. Like who are they making this game for? You know, are they going to be able to peel D2 players away? Uh I mean, those are real things that they're gonna have to contend with.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:05

And yeah, and and not only just like compete, like D5 would be competing for my time with D2R, for sure, if that's their thing, but they're also competing with other games and other ARPGs, like your PoEs and your last epochs, right? So that they're trying to like compete in this space that is like pretty pretty saturated and pretty full, and then they're also competing against their own titles, their own games. Like again, D3 people like D3, let them play D3 and give them more D3. Like, if your goal was to get them to jump, it's like you'd have to cut off the game basically and force them to move. And if you don't, like they're they're still doing updates to D2R, so I'm gonna just do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:51

As far as D2R is concerned, um we don't we don't have exact numbers, but uh I have to imagine that Reign of the Warlock was super profitable. Um you know, compared to the the size of the dev team. Like I don't know the again exact numbers, but you know, let's say there's uh 10 to 15 people working on D2R. And then that maybe that's a a high estimate. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:22

But that sounds about right, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:24

You have to figure out salaries, compensation, all the stuff that goes along with it. You're probably looking at maybe two to three million dollars in operating expenses, you know, then you have to talk about the infrastructure and then all the supporting IT pieces that go along with it. Uh you know, maybe it costs them six million dollars annually to operate everything. The D2R team. Yeah, and and the and the servers and everything that goes along with it. I I I don't know for sure. I'm just pulling numbers out of my head here. Yeah. Uh but I have to imagine that the profit margin on D2R is crazy good. And while it might not be a major um revenue generating source for the company, I think any company would be crazy to not continue to serve that player base. Because it's like almost pure profit comparatively.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:42

And and D2R is somewhere in the let's say between 100 and 120th in games in terms of revenue uh in 2025. So that may not be what you know, obviously, you know, you want to be in your top 10, top 20, but I think that's high enough that you can look at it and say we're making money and there's a reason they put more resources or resources into it. Like D3, D3 can't be making them any money at all. So that has to be like the fact that those servers are maintained, that's an act of love to the to the fans of D3. No, that's just a gift.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:20

I mean, and they didn't even mention them in the BlizzCon, right? They weren't even like there.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:25

You know, when they did their like the the opening, um, the opening montage, there's like a a a clip of it, you know, like like it's like like part of the thing, yeah. But but as as far as like a game entity, no, like, and nobody talked about it. And it's you know, I mean it and I you you kind of feel bad a little bit for the people who made it and everything. Some some of the devs mentioned it and talked about it a little bit, but not not with any like real, you know, thing. People talk about D2 and D4 because it's the flavor, the current flavor. But most of most of I would say that if you had one of those heat map things and you talked about and you brought up what everybody talks about Diablo, I think Diablo 2 would have a huge chunk of the heat map, if not the largest, and then D4 would be next to it. And then after that, D1 and D3. I have very confident in that.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:12

The the only issue with the the business model of D2 is that there's there's the no microtransaction thing, so it's like they gotta sell it, you know, out front, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:23

Yeah, and people hate it, but I'm like, why not build it, build it into the structure? Why not? I I how many how many people would love to have an alternative look for Shakos, for masks, those ugly masks. Oh my god, they're horrible, you know. Uh, I mean, you know, there's a lot of ways that they could do stuff, and it doesn't have to be, you know, the the very spendy D4 X MOG stuff, which I I I think it I've always felt was a a really bad decision. You could do a couple, you could do it a couple ways. Just hey, you know, for five bucks a month you get all the things you want, or you know, these things are available for $2.99 or whatever. I mean, whatever number you wanted to come up with. I mean, I I think some of the Diablo Immortal buys are like 99 cents or something, you know. So so I think there's room for smaller transactions like that. That if and I know there are people who are gonna listen to this and go, how dare you?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:15

You know, hey, there are people that are gonna lose their minds.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:18

Here's how I dare. I want this game to succeed, I want this game to succeed, so I want this game to be profitable so they continue to put money into it and put invest resources in it. And if that's the way it has to be, microtransactions, as long as they're cosmetic, knock yourself out. Who cares? You don't have to buy it, you don't have to use it.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:37

As long as they implement it in a way that doesn't change core gameplay.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:41

Yeah, that that's mostly cosmetic, that doesn't give you bonuses to level faster or anything like that. Uh if it's if it's done in that way, then then I think it's at least it's open for discussion. I I think anything else is a non-starter.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:04

Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:05

Yeah, and I I think if if given the opportunity to support further development of D2R, I think a lot of people would happily do it. Um even without some sort of reward or whatever. But there's definitely the people that are never gonna pay us another dime after the initial purchase, yes, which is also fine. But like let those whales support the game a little bit, right? Like there's there's pockets to be picked there. Um, and it seems like they're not fully taking advantage. And and one of them that we all speculated a long time ago was like paid stash tabs, right? Like that doesn't really affect any, you know, progression in the game. It just allows you to save some more stuff, and people would probably happily pay for that if they wanted it, and then people that don't want it and don't need it won't pay for it, and that's also fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:05

Agreed. Uh I I think anything that can be done correctly, uh, and I guess maybe that's ambiguous, but uh anything that can be done in a way that we've discussed uh that will help keep the game in development. Uh to keep to keep the game going. Uh I think the players are really open to that. At least I won't say oh strong majority, but like I think a lot of people feel the same. Alright, well, we've talked about a lot of things uh here today. A lot of food for thought about what the future might look like for both D2R and uh D5. Wow, it feels weird even saying that. Uh but uh I'm excited. I think like I said at the beginning of the episode, I think that there will be more for D2R that's not that's beyond what uh was kind of expressed at BlizzCon. I think there's something else going on uh more than just updating items. Maybe we're gonna we're gonna call it there for today. Smalls, I wanna thank you for joining us today.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:31

Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:32

It's yeah, it's always great to have you on. Thank you. Like I said, you're you're the only guest that we've had as a repeat, and you're certainly the only guest that we've had on three times. Um we really appreciate that, and uh we wish you the best of luck in your future PvP endeavors. True. Looking forward, looking forward to hearing more about that. But uh with that, uh where can people find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:57

Yeah, so uh my YouTube channel, Smallps Gaming, I have you know mostly focused on shorts. I do put out some long content, um, but um not so much, mostly shorts right now. And then obviously on our Discord here, I'm very active on the Discord, specifically on the class channels, just to help sort of answer questions for people. And then, yeah, I've been competing in the DFC um starting at the beginning of this year on Cooley's DFC. You can see me there too.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:25

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